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Tartine No 3 question

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Baker Frank's picture
Baker Frank

Tartine No 3 question

I found a recipe for Oat Porridge Bread online from Tartine No 3. It mentions as an ingredient "oat porridge" and this is where I need advice. There are so many ways of making porridge: steel oats, rolled oats, water +/- milk, salt, sugar, etc.

So does anyone specifically know what Chad Robertson means by "oat porridge"?

Thank you, Frank

BreadBro's picture
BreadBro

I've got the book. He says the following:

"To prepare porridge, combine 2 parts water and 1 part flaked or cracked grains in a saucepan over medium heat."

Specifically for the Oat Porridge Bread he says to use rolled oats.

plevee's picture
plevee

Thanks for this information.

I tried making this bread from the recipe on Food 52. After 31/2 hours of S&F the dough was intolerably sticky. I put it in the fridge to retard overnight and the following morning did one more S&F. The dough stuck to everything; my hands, the counter, the bench knife and the peel despite liberal, and I mean massive, amounts of flour. The result was a misshapen flat boule with a gummy crumb.

I made my porridge the usual way with 1 part steel cut oats to 3 parts water. The instructions above probably make the recipe more workable!

Patsy

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Patsy,  I really want to try this type of bread, i.e. kneading in porridge, too.  But the little bits of information I pick up here and there say that when grains are soaked or boiled they release their starch and that makes the dough very sticky.  And people comment that sometimes (depending on the amount of soaked grains) the dough becomes just about impossible to work with, just as happened to you.  Yet none of the recipes mention the stickiness factor or how to manage it even though it is so prominent.   I wonder if there is a consistent mistake somewhere?  I am sorry the bread didn't make you happy, at least that's what I think you are saying.  You will figure it out.   I wish I had the book!    

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Hi BreadBro!  If you don't mind my asking again, when you say 2:1 is by weight or volume? Thanks!

plevee's picture
plevee

Vital information if I was to attempt this again.

BreadBro's picture
BreadBro

Chad specifies by weight, not volume. Good luck!

I'm thinking about doing this recipes and posting a thread about it. I'm really interested in his porridge breads, and this one seems the most straightforward out the other recipes.

plevee's picture
plevee

I look forward to your experience and results. I'm used to handling fairly wet doughs but this was a mess.

Patsy

katyajini's picture
katyajini

BreadBro, how is it you have the book? I see only the kindle edition on Amazon.  Is the book available only in somewhere special?

Thanks

Baker Frank's picture
Baker Frank

Thank you. Sometime in the future please let us know what you think of the book.

Frank

kensbread01's picture
kensbread01

and am willing to make one neg comment... first let me say i have Tartine bread book (no. 2) and love it.  And I want to expand my ability to make whole grain type of breads.  I've read the first parts of this book and found some interesting things, for sure.  The basic master recipe for bread is still the same except for the cooking times and temperatures.  Interesting... not sure if this is because of the whole grains or if this applies to any bread.  Not a big deal though.  And one thing I did not like, the quality of the paper used... cheapest stuff possible IMO before it becomes something of a paperback novel.  I would pay more to get better quality photos, paper, and ink since I want this book to last and as we all know, cook books can take a beating.

Would love to find out what others think of the print quality.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Janetcook has been using porridge, or gruel as she sometimes calls it, in her whole grain breads for about as long as i can remember - which is 2 years.  It is one of the many things I learned from her and others on TFL to make better breads of all kinds.  Chad's got nothing on Janet-)  Where she learned it I don't know,maybe PR's Whole Grain Breads?... but i learned it from her.  I'm glad that Chad has turned to the dark side though!.

I learned adding corn meal to bread to enhance the flavor from Janet too.

Baker Frank's picture
Baker Frank

dabrownman

Thank for the suggestions and input; I will for sure give it a try.

Frank

katyajini's picture
katyajini

dabrownman:  Hi its me again. If you don't mind would you show me where she ( Janetcook)  posts information about porridge/gruel  and how to use them in breads?  I can't seem to find it. I am just getting into this kind of bread and I am liking the taste and possibilities a lot.  I would love to learn from others experience.  And the cornmeal too....where are you learning about this?  I have only made the struan several times, recipe on this site, that uses a little bit of course cormeal in a soaker.  The flavor is wonderful.  Who knew?

I don't know Chad R., haven't read his books, but I don't get the joke? :)  Does this mean he bakes dark breads?   

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

I was reading through 'rooms' and I saw your question and Mr. D's comment about where he learned about using cooked grains in breads.  Felt like I had to let you know the true credit goes to txfarmer since I learned my method from her…so I am bouncing the complement onto the originator :)

HERE is the formula that taught me how to use gruel in my loaves.  She is an excellent teacher so if you follow her method you will get excellent results.  Key here is intensive mixing but if you are going for a more open crumb then you will want to adjust to your preference.  You can also drop the enrichments so you get a lean loaf.  Just adjust liquids as necessary. 

I have read Chad's formulas for this kind of bread and the timing just doesn't make sense to me as a home baker using whole grains.  I would have a sticky mess too if I left a soaker containing whole grains out for 12 hours with no salt in it….If you can pull it off I am anxious to know how :)  

This is a new book so I am sure at some point we will be reading about errors contained within….part of the process of publishing books on baking.  Most editors are not baker's so things can go unnoticed until people begin to find out that formulas or procedures do not measure up….I know that happened with Stan's book and he was quick to publish all the corrections once it hit the market.  Yeah Stan!

Good Luck

Janet

 

 

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Thank you so, so much for the link.  I have been reading your posts voraciously (and other posts too) trying to understand tasty, interesting breads made by introducing grains in as many interesting ways.

(Right now I was practicing making Anadama Bread with corn, with corn porridge in one loaf and the same exact quantity of ingredients but the corn soaked ON in an  other. You did something like that too. That's why I took a while to reply.  The doughs handled and looked very differently.  They rose and baked differently too.  I haven't cut the loaves yet...this was a fun experiment.  ;)

I am learning the hard way about way about ON soakers without salt......

As aside I don't know why you can't taste the bread you bake.....but I grew up with several completely vegetarian women who have never tasted meat or fish since birth, or even in the womb, yet they prepare the most refined, delectable, balanced meat and fish preparations you will ever taste.    

Thank you again for taking the time...

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

You are very welcome.  I am happy to pass on what I learned here.

Sounds like you are learning the 'right' way about your breads.  Someone told me the best way to learn about baking was to bake a lot and pay attention.  That sounds just like what you are doing and, to me, that is the best way to learn - from personal experience. 

Many times when I think some bread does not turn out, people still like it because of the flavor so now I do not worry so much about end results.

In a cold soaker the enzymes are active in the grains.  Whole grains contain a lot of enzymes that when combined with water begin to break down the grain and you can run into problems with too much fermentation and the gluten structure then breaks down…..On the other hand, when a grain is cooked, the enzymes are de-activated so they do not destroy the gluten.  Gets tricky when controlling the heat temp. because you can destroy some enzymes while still leaving others active…each process adds a different dimension to the end loaf.

Have Fun!

Janet

 

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Thank you Janet.  I am quite inspired by you and people like you here.

I wanted to ask you something that dabrownman mentioned.  He said (He?) he likes to add corn to all his breads, kind of getting inspiration from you, how you like the flavor of corn in your breads 

I am loving the favor of corn (and oats) in bread.  Its quite a revelation to me. 

So if it is OK with you, how do you like adding corn to your breads? 

Thank you :)

 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

I can't recall exactly what I wrote but I think it was when I posted the Anadama loaf that is a formula that uses corn and that I like to bake due to the texture and aroma while it is in progress.

In general corn is not a grain that I add to breads that I routinely bake so I am not sure how to direct you to including it in more of your breads.  Only thing I can say is that you can simply experiment by adding different amounts and seeing how you like the results.

Have Fun,

Janet

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Thank you!  I am having fun working in it!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

she often comments on others.  This isn't the only one but here Janet and others talk about gruel, mashes, Tang Zhong....etc

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/31918/danish-rye-rugbrot-problem-help-please-you-seeded-rye-experts

I'll have to look where she commented about corn and i do remember saying I tried it,  liked it and  was going to put a little corn in all of my breads from now on .....and nearly have thanks to her - including the last one on Friday.

The joke is that Chad used to make white SD breads and write about them in the SF style and now he has finally gotten around to baking whole grain breads (the dark side) and writing about them - about time I would say...

Happy baking

katyajini's picture
katyajini

dabrownman:  just another question if you have a moment:  when you say you want to add corn to all your breads you mean fine or coarsely ground cornmeal right?  And would you just knead it in or do you soak it in water or cook it?  I hope you are not getting sick of my questions.  thanks so much for your help! 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

apprentice is in at the time,  Sometimes she uses corn flour,  Sometimes she grinds corn meal into flour and both of these she just treats like the rest of the flour in the bread.  Other times she will take corn meal and simmer it into a gruel.  Sometime she will take corn meal and add 5 times its weight in water and tang zhong it into a galvanized mess and let that cool to add into the bread at the autolyse stage,  Sometimes I add it to the the regular Toady Mix of, various grain brans, wheat germ, sifted out middlings, ground sesame and flax seeds and dry roast it a pan until golden brown.  Then some of this is added to the dough flour - the best bread flavor enhancer i know on the planet are these Toadies.  If the dough is loose, Lucy might even just fold in some corn meal while doing stretch and folds to tighten up the dough - this gives a real mice yellow speckled look to the crumb.

Dough is pretty forgiving and there rte lots of possibilities in how you might want to put it some corn or other things like potatao and oats into bread. No worries about doing it right sinece all of these things have been done by bakers for a very, very long time adn they all work well - thankfully:-)

Happy baking

katyajini's picture
katyajini

:)  :)   :)  :)  :)  :)   :)  :)

This is very, very interesting.

You are liberating me!

I am not sure I am ready for all this emancipation!  Actually I am.  This is awesome. You just touched someone's mind.  The heart of education.

Thank you for this timely guidance.  You helped me more ways than you know. 

 

katyajini's picture
katyajini

Baker Frank:  Let us know how your oat porridge bread goes.  I am interested in making that bread too.  From the description I think I will like it.  But my skill level is minimal!

dabrownman: OOOH Thank you for that link. Sounds a little complicated off the bat but I will figure it out slowly. Seems like in some recipes people are just boiling exactly as for making porridge and in others there is a big song and dance.  If the corn mention comes back to you let us know... happy baking to you too!

 

BreadBro's picture
BreadBro

So I went through and made it according to the book's instructions. The porridge itself comes out rather thick when following his instructions - which makes sense because I think runny porridge would contribute too much extra water.

Overall it's not so difficult. The tricky bit is folding in the porridge without degassing the loaf too much. I rolled it in oat flakes like he said and baked for about 40 minutes. I didn't have a dutch oven to use, so I just put it on the stone. I think it came out pretty good and looks remarkably similar to the picture in the book.

 

 

Julie McLeod's picture
Julie McLeod

I've got this Oat Porridge bread in the early stages of bulk ferment right now.  I had the same reaction as you did - the proportions of oats to water he suggested made for a very thick porridge - so I ended up adding quite a bit more water than twice the mass and it was still super thick.  Otherwise, I'm eager to see how it turns out though I probably won't end up baking until tomorrow morning.

Did you add the almonds and the almond oil?

Baker Frank's picture
Baker Frank

BreadBro

The bread looks beautiful and I am sure it taste great also. Too bad we can only share our thoughts and pictures since I would love to give it a taste.

It takes me quite a bid of time between finding a recipe to try and the actual execution.

Frank

kensbread01's picture
kensbread01

BreadBro,  nice job on the Porridge bread,  In your opinion, what does it taste like?  Is it a good, tasty bread?  Sure looks good.

BreadBro's picture
BreadBro

It's unlike anything I've baked before. The oats add a touch of sweetness and make the crumb really soft and creamy. The flavor is really quite good, and I'm excited to try this style of bread out again. The book has several other porridge recipes.

katyajini's picture
katyajini

really lovely!  looks perfect.

Baker Frank's picture
Baker Frank

Janet

Thank you for re-directing me to txfarmer who's methods are worth following. I have noticed the quality of her blog entries and the beautiful breads she makes.

Frank

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

You are more than welcome.  Her blogs are well worth your time as she is, in my opinion, a highly skilled baker.

Have Fun,

Janet