December 6, 2013 - 7:38am
Starter Selection
Despite years of SD baking, I remain confused about which/why/how much starter is used - mainly the selection of flours.
I've used high and low hydration white and whole wheat flours, but not a rye-based starter. Maybe there are others to try, but I'm most curious about the rye. For white/wheat, I'll usually use 12-19 oz of starter to raise 5 lbs of dough.
Would the rye starter bring a noticeable difference in flavor? Rise? Crumb?
Would I use roughly the same amounts?
Is it better to supplement another starter w/ some rye starter - rather than all rye starter?
Many Thanks for your kind help.
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You haven't really hit starter nirvana until you've had a good whiff of ripe rye starter.
Ok, what confuses you about how much starter to use?
Does it help to picture the little beasties? They eat food. We give them food and water and a warm place to live.
Water hydration can vary as it is a mode of transportation within the culture for the beasties to get to the food and deposit products of fermentation. We be nice to them, they be nice to us, we save some of them we kill most of them in the oven.
The stuff they grow in (sourdough culture or dough) is made of flour and other ingredients. Eventually (if we let them) they will eat up all the food and when they've done that, they find a way to survive until more food is presented.
If there is a low concentration of yeast in the starter culture, it takes longer to raise a loaf. If there is a high concentration of yeast in the starter, they can raise a loaf faster.
If you have two jars and each has one oz of the same starter culture and you add 4 oz of flour to each and 20oz of water to one and 4 oz of water to the other and wait 12 hours, they will still have the same amount of yeast (all variables equal) But you will need more of the more liquid starter to get the same results as the concentrated starter. There are less beasties per oz. If you use all but one oz of each starter, more water has to be added to the recipe using the concentrated starter for both loaves to have the same dough hydration. They will both rise the same, but the starters are different hydrations.
Food, namely carbohydrate from grain is a food source, this makes sense because we are making the bread from grain flour. There are a variety of yeasts and I am willing to bet that my starter has different colonies in various sizes than your starter. no biggie. Important is that most of these yeast and bacteria can survive on a rather wide variety of carbohydrate food sources. They adapt rather quickly with each feeding generation of yeast. Some adapt better and faster than others to the food we give them. Some of the adaptation has to do with previous experience of the yeast with known food sources.
I don't know if that made sense. It has been my experience that the more variety of food flours fed a starter (anytime in it's history) the quicker it adapts to flours other than the maintenance flour. If getting more aroma and flavour is your goal, experiment. (Keep a backup before experimenting in case you want to go back to a starter with less history.)
Rye seems to support sourdough yeast and bacteria with fewer problems in maintenance. Rye flour also has the effect of boosting yeast numbers in other starters. That leads one to think that rye contains a lot of good food ingredients for the survival of sourdough bacteria and yeast varieties.
I have noticed that rye starters have something extra in the aroma department. Also when the starter has been switched to a wheat fed starter. It is possible to mix starters in a recipe. Might not even be a bad idea if a lot of wheat is involved and the rye starter has no history of being fed wheat. Some rye starters will balk when fed wheat only at about the second or third feeding suddenly decreasing in yeast activity. A slow introduction and gradual increase of wheat flour with the regular rye feeding should help the starter. It doesn't always happen but being aware that it can means that you can recognise the problem sooner when it does happen, ready to jump in and add instant yeast if needed to raise the loaf.
Mini, Thank You! 'Still smiling, 'cause I hoped I'd hear your thoughts on it. You seem to have cracked most of the nuts I'm curious about.
I'd not thought of feeding mixed flours for maintenance. 'Gives me pause. I'll be re-reading this a number of times. I have used several combinations of starters - often intentionally :) I'll substitute an ounce or two of a rye or whole wheat to a white formula that isn't tangy enough. Motherdoughs seem to be famous for mild - so I'll supplement w/ either white or wheat starter in a final mix.
In selection of starter for a formula - do you normally start w/ either generic white starter or the starter made from the primary flour type? Then experiement? When you deviate from the generic, what makes you choose rye vs wheat vs ...
Again, I appreciate your kindness in responding. 'Hope your wkend is excellent.
I'm not a microbiologist, I tend to simplify and I didn't mention much of what is going on with the supporting bacteria in the culture. I do believe they play a major role setting up/preparing the food for their yeasty friends. And just like any dinner party, there is a lot of back and forth interaction while they go thru the food. Enzymes will also be there complicating or enhancing all of this.
Sour seems to come from these little bacteria helpers and when they are in ample abundance, tend to bring out lots of sour flavours (they can also produce enough gas to fake you out thinking the yeast is active.) Too many and they hamper rapid yeast growth.
That is what all the discarding and big feed ratios are about (in ideal temps with either feeding or adding starter to dough.) The yeasts then get a boost as soon as the bacteria level(w/ by-products) is ideal, then rapid yeast growth (exponential math) with the bacteria leap froging over the yeast growth to multiply their numbers to tasty levels. This can be manipulated (by us) in a number of ways using multiple builds, retardation, etc. and mixing starters together in the dough. I suppose mixing a bacteria dominant starter with a yeast dominant starter could be a nice combination. Dabrownman is often adding yeast water along with his starters for great flavours and rise, not to mention enhanced dough colouring.
Currently, I play predominantly with rye flour and one starter, a rye starter, going forward from there. It is easy to maintain and takes my abuse in stride. ...and I like the way it smells all during the fermenting process. As long as I can buy rye, I will maintain a rye starter.
Over the years, I have made starters from a variety of carbohydrates. If it can ferment and produce gas and alcohol, it can be made to work raising bread dough.
We are all keeping warm while the temperatures hang around zero degrees F. Wishing you also an excellent weekend. I discovered a new way to crispen soggy crusts, stick it outside (right now) for 1 minute, crispy!
Mini, again - thank you so much. Your thoughts (here and other threads) never fail to grab my attention.
Optimizing a build for specific traits, seems to have my imagination in a tight grip. I only recently got J. Hamelman's wonderful bread book, and it has helped a tremendous amount. Reading about that 3-step detmolder (sp) technique seemed like the most clear example of feeding/building for specific results. I'll be trying most of the ryes in his fine book. I have a weakness in that I can't bring myself to use commercial yeast, so I'm always finding ways to use the wild ones.
Zero?! Wow. We're at a balmy 21 in the Great North Wet. Even the garage is getting a bit too cold for the starters (white, wheat, rye, desem). 'Still prob. a bit warmer than the 'fridges.
All best to you & yours, Mini.