The Fresh Loaf

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straight dough method instead of preferment with sourdough? Is this feasible?

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beakernz's picture
beakernz

straight dough method instead of preferment with sourdough? Is this feasible?

I'm not sure if it's feasible but am experimenting with 500gm loaves to see what happens.  I'm basically adding straight starter 25gms to the flour mix, mix till shaggy, rest for 30mins, then salt and knead in my mixer for 5mins, then bulk prove 4-6hrs at room temp.  At this point I will try retarding the loaf (winter approaching here so will sit the bowl in one of our unheated rooms which is not quite as cold as our fridge but still chilly).  I will then let this sit over night for around 12hrs.  In the morning I will shape and final proof at room temp for 1-2hrs.  I'm not sure what to expect.  I'm somewhat hoping the overnight process allows the dough to develop as good as if I had done a preferment.  My starter is extremely strong and can more than double every 2-3hrs.  I'm looking to remove the preferment step so that my process is mix up on day one, proove till the next day, shape and bake.  I'm interested in any straight dough methods for sourdough but it might not be ideal to be trying this.

Crider's picture
Crider

I don't know if you can depend on the timings you've set up, but you can adjust the amount of starter you use to achieve your bulk-ferment target time. This is assuming that your room temperature is stable. I do know that the San Francisco bakery, Boudin, uses the straight dough method for their famous sourdough.

polo's picture
polo

At what stage are you going to use your starter (young, peak, past peak)? I mix 48 lbs of sourdough at a time, and the only reason that I mix anything that would be considered a "preferment" is to build my starter up to the required volume.

Mix dough, one hour autolyse, S&F 4 to 5 times over the next two hours, shape loaves, retard overnight in cold room (garage in my case, low 40's F.), bring loaves back to near room temp in the morning, and bake.

beakernz's picture
beakernz

 

****UPDATE*** recipe has changed, scroll down for latest..

 

Here is the result of my experiment, looks good I think.

My recipe:

25g Starter
400g white flour
100g rye flour
3g malt powder
315g water

I mixed the above in the mixer until shaggy, set aside for 30mins

I then added salt and kneaded in the mixer 7-8mins

I bulk proved 4hrs in hot water cupboard (winter here and cooooold).
Then into a cold unheated room in the house (almost refridgerator cold) for 14hrs
I then shaped the loaf and placed in banneton in hotwater cupboard 2hrs

Baked in dutch oven

I am thinking the long cool ferment would have allowed the sourdough cultures to do their thing and make for a tasty and well processed loaf.  One reason I am using sourdough is for health benefits (processing of gluten, decrease in phytic acid, etc) so I hope this method does not reduce any benefits but how would I know.  Loaf is cooling so haven't tasted it yet, sure looks good though!

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

8 - 10 grms ?

Judy

beakernz's picture
beakernz

the next loaf I am trying 6gm, i'll be baking it in the afternoon (NZ time) so will post some pics then :)

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

but that's not important.  I've been using 2%  but I can always  adjust.  Many thanks.  Waiting to see your next bake.

Judy

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I'm trying to follow your recipe using 400 grms flour with 20%rye @ 63% hydration based on yr formula. I don't have malt powder so I'm using some caraway seeds instead.  We shall see if mine is anything close to that beauty of yours. 

Judy

beakernz's picture
beakernz

Hope it works well :)  I've updated my recipe below.  I'm baking another loaf in the morning so will post that pic as well.  It seems my current recipe is perfect for my Kenwood Chef, the dough is kneading perfectly.  That being said I'm in a New Zealand winter using flours unique to my area etc, so it may need slight tweaking for others.

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Like you, I'm also trying to use a starter with my breads and starting out with approx  50 grms, and  gradually increase to a larger amount so that less gets thrown out.  The qty of flour that you're experimenting with is just right for me and I can easily scale this  down to 400 grms for a slightly smaller loaf.  I live in HK which is  hot and humid at this time of the year  so I'll need to adjust  the timing for the  bulk fermentation and second proof.  Did you bake this  in a cold or pre-heated dutch oven?  

Judy

beakernz's picture
beakernz

a big pre-heated cast iron dutch oven le chasseur.  450 for around 17mins then took the lid off.  I have an external digital probe themometer and am able to pull the loaf when it hits 190 or so.

kenlklaser's picture
kenlklaser

The design is reminiscent of a castle spire, perhaps the top of a rook.

Your process reminded me a lot of the breadtopia sourdough rye process.  The ratio of wheat:rye was different, and your starter was less, they used 70 g, if I recall correctly.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi,

As I understand it, "Straight Dough" means a dough without any pre-ferment. Sourdough starter is a pre-ferment.

I am not sure what your question is regarding feasibility. You have made a pretty standard sourdough bread. And it looks pretty good, too.

David

beakernz's picture
beakernz

Thanks David, that makes sense :)

subfuscpersona's picture
subfuscpersona

...tried and true method. Most of us who just keep a small amount of sourdough starter do a build or refreshment of the sourdough portion by feeding the sourdough with a given amount of flour and water at the beginning and allow this mixture to rise until approximately double in bulk. Then the procedure of mixing, bulk fermentation, retardation, shaping, final proof and baking proceeds pretty much as you've described it (with variations, of course).

You've skipped the levain build and, after a brief autolyse, gone straight to mixing, bulk fermentation, etc. It does cut out the time required to build your levain.

I don't know if you use a firm sourdough starter or a 100% hydration one - can you tell us?

It would seem the 4 - 6 hour builk fermentation at room temperature is long enough to allow the levain to increase enough so that you get a good rise. Having 20% rye flour also helps, I think, since rye flour is favorable to yeast growth (? and the LABs also? not sure of this).

Do you think the sourdough flavor is less pronounced when the levain build is skipped?

Thanks for your post and your loaf looks great. I might try this myself.

 

Alpana's picture
Alpana

Great looking bread. I have used my starter straight out of fridge in no knead breads and it has worked well without any change of schedule, but was a bit too sour for my taste so these days I add some Yeast Water to balance the tang. I usually use 51gms starter for 400 gms flour (including flour in starter).  I will try with autolyse next time like you did.

beakernz's picture
beakernz

I've got a new loaf proving right now, this time all the same method but added 70gms starter.  The flavour in the above loaf was great, definite sourdough flavour and my wife said it was the best bread she ever had.  It had great texture.  My starter came from an artisan baker in NZ and I have been feeding it for a few months, it has an amazing floral scent, very strong and active as well.  When feeding I add 100gms water and 80gms organic rye.

Thanks for the comments.  I'm still a newbie with lots to learn but I am pretty happy so far.  I love the Kenwood Chef Classic I recently bought, once getting the recipe right it kneads the dough perfectly.

beakernz's picture
beakernz

Ok, here is the 2nd attempt, came out great.  This is 1/4 into the loaf:

 

 

My full recipe is now:

50g starter
400 g bread flour
100g rye flour
3 gdiastatic malt powder
315g water
6g celtic salt

-Mix everything but salt in mixer (kenwood chef) with paddle on minimum-1 setting, for 1 minute until shaggy
-cover bowl with plastic wrap and room temp for 30mins
-add 6g celtic salt
-mix using dough hook 3mins on 1 setting and 5 mins on 2 setting
-cover bowl with plastic wrap and sit in room temp 4hrs
-place in cold environment covered with plastic wrap for 14hrs (it's winter here and we have a couple unheated rooms in the house, pretty cold in there so I leave it in there.  I think a fridge or a fridge that's not too cold, I'm still experimenting with temp.
-in the morning I dump out the dough onto a lightly floured board and shape
-place in banneton, put banneton inside plastic bag and let sit for 2hrs room temp

baking
-tip dough onto floured peel
-place in pre-heated dutch oven (I use a Le Chasseur)
-bake 450ish inside dutch oven 17mins, take off lid and bake until golden brown (I use a temp probe and pull the bread when internal temp hits 190's)

 

 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I doubt if I can get my crust to bloom like yours.  I have a 22 cm/9.5"  Staub and is just right for the qty of flour that I use, I'm concerned that  if I use more flour, the lid may get in the way of the rise.  I have a temp probe too, when do you put this in, when you remove the lid or when you think it's almost time? 

beakernz's picture
beakernz

My DO is a big one at 29cm so I might get a larger banneton and up my recipe a bit.  I put the probe in when I take the lid off.  usually at that point it's 175-180 and it browns up as it approaches 190's

beakernz's picture
beakernz

3rd loaf using this method.  I got a bit sloppy putting it into the DO and rushed the scoring but it still turned out good.  The bread is slightly overproofed when coming out of the banneton but it still explodes in the oven.  I am ok with the overproofing because the flavour is much much stronger and as long as I get a decent rise in the end I find it's best of both worlds.  It's probably 5-5.5inches high, hard to tell in the image.

beakernz's picture
beakernz

my best loaf yet, really getting a feel for it :)

 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

One thing good about baking in a DO is that you get a pleasant surprise each and every time you remove the lid!! Did you do anything different this time?  Are you still using the same recipe above with 20% rye?  I don't have diastatic malt so I'm not sure if I can get the same good result as you have done.  I followed your recipe last week with a little adjustment  of the recipe and timing and the result was satisfactory.   Thanks for sharing your recipe.  It's just what I need as a novice sourdough baker.

Judy 

beakernz's picture
beakernz

Thanks Judy.  Same recipe but I do a room temp bulk prove for 2hrs, then cool the dough for 12hrs, then do another 1-2hrs room temp following day before shaping and final proof.  Since doing this I am getting huge rise, did another loaf today looked just like the above.

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

except my room temp was higher @ 28C.  I put it in the fridge before I went to bed and got up early to bring it back to room temp.  I baked in a cold DO (but pre-heated my oven to max) save on the gas bill,  but gave it extra time covered. I used 60 grms instead of 50gr of white starter only because when spooned it into my measuring jug that was the exact measurement and I couldn't take it out.

I only have a white starter so yours must taste better with a rye starter aside from looking   good.