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fallen rise - adding yeast to starter based loaf

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metropical's picture
metropical

fallen rise - adding yeast to starter based loaf

My multi-grain suffers from fallen rise of about an inch, after oven spring.

I wonder if perhaps I should add less or no yeast to the dough as it is made with a fridged wad of starter, fed for 3-5 days.

I feed with 1/1 KA BF to 90°f water.  2 tbsps at first then 1/4c on bake day.

The starter doubles, if not more, with each feed.

 

This is the dough recipe.

2c KA BF

3/4c ww

1/2c rye

1/4c rye/wheat berries, cooked for 15 minutes in 1c water.

1/4c quinoa, cooked in an additonal 1/4c water with the berries for an additional 15 mins.

3/4c rolled oats

T gluten

2c starter (100%)

1c water

2 1/2 T dark malt extract

2 1/2 t yeast

2 1/2 t salt

Ford's picture
Ford

A good sourdough starter needs no added yeast.  Temperatures of 90°F are a little high for sourdough yeast.  There is no need for high gluten in the starter, use AP flour for this.

The rough ingredients, eg: bran, wheat berries, will weaken the gluten structure of the dough and thus give poor rise or fallen loaves and dense crumb.

  Is this a proven recipe and can you give the reference or the entire recipe?

Ford

metropical's picture
metropical

I didn't expalin clearly enough.  I've edited for clairty ........ I hope.

The gluten is added to the dough, post starter.

What temp should be used for feeding the starter?

Proven recipe for me, yes.  Though originally I used a grape starter ala Silverton.

I apparenty had forgotten what I'd done previously as I took a very long break from baking due to work getting in the way of my fun.

I think that previously I may have added very little or no yeast at some point.

 

Ford's picture
Ford

"The gluten is added to the dough, post starter."== You are using bread flour for starter instead of all purpose.

"What temp should be used for feeding the starter?" == 80-85°F

"Proven recipe for me, yes.  Though originally I used a grape starter ala Silverton."  == I was refering to the recipe for the bread  itself.  Mike Avery's recipes are reliable.  For one with"seven grains" see: http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.php?content=sevengraincerealbread.  He also has great information on sour dough. 

I hope this is helpful.

Ford

 

 

"seven grains"

metropical's picture
metropical

"You are using bread flour for starter instead of all purpose."  meaning that the bf is higher in gluten than the ap?

so I should feed with ap instead?

thanks for the other info.

Ford's picture
Ford

It doesn't hurt to use bf, but the protein in it has no purpose for the starter.  The glutein in the starter will be degraded with time.

Ford

 

 

metropical's picture
metropical

"The glutein in the starter will be degraded with time."

good to know.  I'll switch to ap as well.

isand66's picture
isand66

There is no issue with using the BF in your starter.  I use AP since it is cheaper and I use my starter for all different kinds of bread so the lower protein level works better for me.

what procedure do you use to Mae your dough?  This will effect the final outcome for sure.  I do not use yeast with my starter but a little will speed things up if desired.  You can check out my recipes on TFL or on my other blog at www.mookielovesbread.wordpress.com 

l have many recipes using multigrain flours and add ins and I drink my formulas work very well with a brief initial mix, stretch and folds and bulk fermentation in the fridge.

ian

metropical's picture
metropical

"what procedure do you use to make your dough?"

mix that recipe (without yeast and salt) in a Bosch Concept on 3 for 5-7 mins.

Autolyse 20-30 mins.

Add yeast and salt and mix another 5-7 mins on 3.

30 secs on the counter shaping, into the pan.

Refrigerate until the rise is about 1" over the pan edge.

Bake in preheated 400° oven with a heated pyrex pan and boiled water in it.

Spray 3 times in the first 15 with cold water.

Around 50 mins total, to 200°.

 

There's no added yeast in the starter.

thanks for the link.  The more resource the better

metropical's picture
metropical

same recipe today.  Will not come together in Bosch after 15mins on max.

so I've let it autolyse for 30 min to see if that helps.

quite disappointing.

isand66's picture
isand66

Try doing a bulk rise in the refrigerator overnight.   Then let the dough cme to room temperature for about 2 hours.  Shape and rest for another 2 hours and bake.   This may work better for you.

metropical's picture
metropical

OK.  Thats is what I had donw in the distant past, more or less.

I'll give it a go.