I don't know about a consensus, but the baking soda in the boiling water definitely makes a difference in adding that bit of sheen that I find attractive. Also, I have found the shape is nicer when I use the "roll dough into a snake and then roll the ends together" method, as opposed to the "make a ball of dough and poke a hole in it" method. And my personal preference is for the seeds to be as evenly distributed as possible, so rather than sprinkling them on, I press the top of the boiled bagel into a thin layer of seed mixture on a plate.
I started with Nancy Silverton's recipe and tweaked from there. This is a plain white bagel that is indeed very chewy. It's still maybe a tad too sweet so next time I will cut down on the sugar a little more. Then my next project will be to try them with whole wheat or the KAF first clear flour, as others here have shown so beautifully.
The recipe I used to make 18 bagels is
764g KAF Sir Lancelot flour, 335g sourdough starter (100% hydration), 339g water, 2.8g (a scant 1 tsp.) instant yeast, 11g (2tsp) salt, 23 sugar, 17g non-diastatic malt powder, 52g dry milk powder. The bagels are refrigerated overnight immediately after shaping, then boiled for 20 seconds (I use baking soda in the water) and baked at 400F for 20-22 minutes. The topping, applied before baking, is 2 parts each black and white sesame seeds, 1 part fennel seed, 1 part anise seed, and a pinch of coarse salt.
I'm thinking about trying these, but I had a couple of questions. About how many bagels will this dough make? What dough weight should one bagel be? I was reading the Silverton recipe, and she said 18 4 ounce bagels, but unless I misread it, that's a lot more than her total dough weight.
Also, what amount of baking soda do you use per how much water for the boiling?
Also, the salt looks like it's closer to 1% than 2% (unless I made a math error - sorry if so), so is that to offset the salt flavor in the topping, or is there a reason having to do with the dough fermentation rate or texture? It looked like Silverton's recipe had closer to 2%, and some other recipes I've looked at all have around 2% salt (of total flour weight).
The above makes 18 bagels at about 85g/3oz each (weighed before baking). For me, a 4-oz bagel is just too big. The dough is really stiff so watch it to make sure you're not breaking your mixer.
I use a 7-quart pot filled about 2/3 of the way, with 1 T. of baking soda.
About the salt: yes, my formula has 1.2%. This is the same as I calculated Silverton's to be, although it's entirely possible I made a mistake (I really hate that she doesn't use baker's %). To make the calculation, I had to weigh out some sea salt (which she calls for and is a bit fluffier than table salt, which I use), so there may have been some measurement error there (my 1 T. weighed 13g). Also, I calculated her starter to be 145% hydration, but that may be wrong and have affected my calculations. At any rate, this amount of salt has worked for me, although I do have to say that maybe it could use a bit more; with this warm weather, if I don't get them into the fridge mighty fast after shaping, they proof too much and I end up with the bagels a little puffier than I like. Probably a little more salt would slow that down a bit.
The % of sugar in the formula as posted above is 2.5%, which I mentioned may be a bit sweet. I subsequently tried them with 1.5% sugar, which was just a little under-sweet for me. Maybe 2% is about right (for my palate anyway).
They're in the fridge. I realized after the fact that I made an error and was short by 78 grams of flour for the planned 55% hydration. However, I used 20% "first clear flour", and it came out about how I imagined it ought to be, so maybe the first clear flour wanted a bit more water. The shaping seemed to go OK, although the 3 oz pieces were getting a dry skin by the time I made it to the last few. I hope between going too slowly on shaping and the slightly higher hydration, I don't end up with them being too puffy, as you mentioned.
Any tips on the boiling and baking? For example, after you remove the bagels from the water, do you just drop them right into your dip, or do you cool them somehow. Will they have a tendency to stick to a surface after boiling? Did you drop them straight into the oven onto a stone? I'll figure it out, but any advice will be gratefully accepted. It's not very healthy, but I love them sprinkled with salt, so I'll probably do a bunch of them that way.
After I take the bagels out of the water I let them drain on a cooling rack for a minute or two so they're not dripping wet before being pressed into the seeds. Otherwise the plate of seeds gets too wet and clumps together. Then I put them on a semolina-dusted, parchment-lined baking sheet. I usually just bake right on the sheet, but I have also slid the bagels, still on the parchment, onto the stone.
Here's a tip for future shaping: a quicky spray of water onto each piece of dough right before rolling it out takes care of that skin and makes the shaping much easier.
Yes, I discovered the misting of the piece of dough. I have an atomizer w/water in it, and I was doing that on the last few. It did help tremendously, just as you say.
I am sliding mine onto a stone w/parchment paper dusted w/corn meal. I have semolina, too. I don't know if it will make any difference.
Yes, I have just discovered the seeds getting too wet, and your tip will save me on the next few. I've just started and have 4 in the oven right now.
I'm going to try to do 6 in the next batch. The dough doesn't seem inordinately wet after that mistake I mentioned of leaving out 78 grams of flour, but I can see they are pufffing up a little more than I'd like. I probably spent too long during the shaping last night, and just a touch too much water is in the dough.
Still, I'm hoping they will come out. More soon...
Haha, too much talking on thefreshloaf..., I overbaked them slightly. The oven was probably a touch too hot from the preheat, and they were a little dark after 17 min. Next batch will be better.
sourdough bagel first try
Sourdough bagel second batch
Sourdough Bagels - Done...
As expected, my error in hydration made the crumb slightly lighter and more open than it should be for a bagel. Still, they were delicious and chewy - only slightly too open. Overall it was a big success. Next time, I'll get the hydration slightly lower and all will be as it should be. These had a hydration of 61.5%. I'll shoot for about 57% next time.
Bill, those bagels look really wonderful. I'm glad to hear they taste good too. (So frustrating that we can appreciate each others' work only visually.) I hope it was fun.
This was just a perfect recipe. I've been wanting to try bagels at some point but always felt a little intimidated by all the details in the boiling, the baking soda, the split second timing, the toppings, the shaping, the retarding, and so on. I was unaware of Silverton's recipe, and I am sometimes impatient with the lack of percentages and other formatting aspects of her book. I was also turned off by her starter methods, which is what I read first in her book when I got it a while back, and may have neglected to read more of her book for that reason. However, your photos were so appealing, and I had to give it a try. I'm so happy to be over the hump on understanding how it works, and the bagel feasting going on here is very satisfying to those passing through the kitchen today. Thanks again for all the good tips along the way. You were very helpful on a number of details that made it much easier to feel confident I was somewhere in the right ballpark on everything.
Those are beauties, Bill. You and Susan, for two, busy putting the lie to what I've read in several places--that you can make tasty but not pretty home bagels. I was not familiar with salt-topped bagels til a friend who haunts New York told me about them as their family's favorite. And myself I like a slighty pudgy bagel, so I can't concur that batch 1 fell short in any respect. Oh, and did you use the hole-punch or the snake-shape method? Like Susan's, they look seamless and perfect.
I was pleased with these, and they are disappearing quickly. The salt ones are the most popular. You're right that in NJ and NYC both, the salt ones are popular. I remember taking great pleasure going to the bagel store as a kid and getting a salted, toasted, buttered bagel. I notice they are disappearing more quickly. I did some dill and fennel seed topped also. My son preferred the poppy seed and salt one. I thought the best were caraway and anise.
I used the snake shape method, same as Susan. It was really quite easy. The tip about lightly spraying them with water before shaping was very good, especially for the later ones, which were drying out a little on the surface.
The boiling process was easier than I expected. The other thing I noticed was that, if anything, I needed to go a little faster, as they rose more than I expected in the short time I dilly-dallied shaping them and then later when I took them out to prepare for boiling.
Good Thing I Just Finished Lunch
or i would be slathering all over my shirt.
They are gorgeous.
old camp cook
they are just beautiful!
anita
is there a consensus
about how to get such a smooth surfaced, professional looking bagel? Is it the overnight refrigeration?
Re: is there a consensus
Hi browndog,
I don't know about a consensus, but the baking soda in the boiling water definitely makes a difference in adding that bit of sheen that I find attractive. Also, I have found the shape is nicer when I use the "roll dough into a snake and then roll the ends together" method, as opposed to the "make a ball of dough and poke a hole in it" method. And my personal preference is for the seeds to be as evenly distributed as possible, so rather than sprinkling them on, I press the top of the boiled bagel into a thin layer of seed mixture on a plate.
Thank you to all for the compliments!
Susanfnp
These are the prettiest
These are the prettiest bagels I have ever seen! Thank you for the recipe, Susan.
Re: Sourdough Bagels
Thanks everyone.
I started with Nancy Silverton's recipe and tweaked from there. This is a plain white bagel that is indeed very chewy. It's still maybe a tad too sweet so next time I will cut down on the sugar a little more. Then my next project will be to try them with whole wheat or the KAF first clear flour, as others here have shown so beautifully.
The recipe I used to make 18 bagels is
764g KAF Sir Lancelot flour, 335g sourdough starter (100% hydration), 339g water, 2.8g (a scant 1 tsp.) instant yeast, 11g (2tsp) salt, 23 sugar, 17g non-diastatic malt powder, 52g dry milk powder. The bagels are refrigerated overnight immediately after shaping, then boiled for 20 seconds (I use baking soda in the water) and baked at 400F for 20-22 minutes. The topping, applied before baking, is 2 parts each black and white sesame seeds, 1 part fennel seed, 1 part anise seed, and a pinch of coarse salt.
Susanfnp
sourdough bagel questions...
Susan,
I'm thinking about trying these, but I had a couple of questions. About how many bagels will this dough make? What dough weight should one bagel be? I was reading the Silverton recipe, and she said 18 4 ounce bagels, but unless I misread it, that's a lot more than her total dough weight.
Also, what amount of baking soda do you use per how much water for the boiling?
Also, the salt looks like it's closer to 1% than 2% (unless I made a math error - sorry if so), so is that to offset the salt flavor in the topping, or is there a reason having to do with the dough fermentation rate or texture? It looked like Silverton's recipe had closer to 2%, and some other recipes I've looked at all have around 2% salt (of total flour weight).
Thanks, Bill
Bill: sourdough bagels
Hi Bill,
The above makes 18 bagels at about 85g/3oz each (weighed before baking). For me, a 4-oz bagel is just too big. The dough is really stiff so watch it to make sure you're not breaking your mixer.
I use a 7-quart pot filled about 2/3 of the way, with 1 T. of baking soda.
About the salt: yes, my formula has 1.2%. This is the same as I calculated Silverton's to be, although it's entirely possible I made a mistake (I really hate that she doesn't use baker's %). To make the calculation, I had to weigh out some sea salt (which she calls for and is a bit fluffier than table salt, which I use), so there may have been some measurement error there (my 1 T. weighed 13g). Also, I calculated her starter to be 145% hydration, but that may be wrong and have affected my calculations. At any rate, this amount of salt has worked for me, although I do have to say that maybe it could use a bit more; with this warm weather, if I don't get them into the fridge mighty fast after shaping, they proof too much and I end up with the bagels a little puffier than I like. Probably a little more salt would slow that down a bit.
The % of sugar in the formula as posted above is 2.5%, which I mentioned may be a bit sweet. I subsequently tried them with 1.5% sugar, which was just a little under-sweet for me. Maybe 2% is about right (for my palate anyway).
Let us know how they turn out if you make them!
Susanfnp
on my way...
Susan,
They're in the fridge. I realized after the fact that I made an error and was short by 78 grams of flour for the planned 55% hydration. However, I used 20% "first clear flour", and it came out about how I imagined it ought to be, so maybe the first clear flour wanted a bit more water. The shaping seemed to go OK, although the 3 oz pieces were getting a dry skin by the time I made it to the last few. I hope between going too slowly on shaping and the slightly higher hydration, I don't end up with them being too puffy, as you mentioned.
Any tips on the boiling and baking? For example, after you remove the bagels from the water, do you just drop them right into your dip, or do you cool them somehow. Will they have a tendency to stick to a surface after boiling? Did you drop them straight into the oven onto a stone? I'll figure it out, but any advice will be gratefully accepted. It's not very healthy, but I love them sprinkled with salt, so I'll probably do a bunch of them that way.
Bill
Boiling the bagels
After I take the bagels out of the water I let them drain on a cooling rack for a minute or two so they're not dripping wet before being pressed into the seeds. Otherwise the plate of seeds gets too wet and clumps together. Then I put them on a semolina-dusted, parchment-lined baking sheet. I usually just bake right on the sheet, but I have also slid the bagels, still on the parchment, onto the stone.
Here's a tip for future shaping: a quicky spray of water onto each piece of dough right before rolling it out takes care of that skin and makes the shaping much easier.
I'm looking forward to seeing your final product!
Susanfnp
operating in real time here...
Some are in the oven as we speak...
Yes, I discovered the misting of the piece of dough. I have an atomizer w/water in it, and I was doing that on the last few. It did help tremendously, just as you say.
I am sliding mine onto a stone w/parchment paper dusted w/corn meal. I have semolina, too. I don't know if it will make any difference.
Yes, I have just discovered the seeds getting too wet, and your tip will save me on the next few. I've just started and have 4 in the oven right now.
I'm going to try to do 6 in the next batch. The dough doesn't seem inordinately wet after that mistake I mentioned of leaving out 78 grams of flour, but I can see they are pufffing up a little more than I'd like. I probably spent too long during the shaping last night, and just a touch too much water is in the dough.
Still, I'm hoping they will come out. More soon...
Haha, too much talking on thefreshloaf..., I overbaked them slightly. The oven was probably a touch too hot from the preheat, and they were a little dark after 17 min. Next batch will be better.
As expected, my error in hydration made the crumb slightly lighter and more open than it should be for a bagel. Still, they were delicious and chewy - only slightly too open. Overall it was a big success. Next time, I'll get the hydration slightly lower and all will be as it should be. These had a hydration of 61.5%. I'll shoot for about 57% next time.
Bill
Bill, those bagels look
Bill, those bagels look really wonderful. I'm glad to hear they taste good too. (So frustrating that we can appreciate each others' work only visually.) I hope it was fun.
Susanfnp
Susan, thanks for the recipe and tips...
Susan,
This was just a perfect recipe. I've been wanting to try bagels at some point but always felt a little intimidated by all the details in the boiling, the baking soda, the split second timing, the toppings, the shaping, the retarding, and so on. I was unaware of Silverton's recipe, and I am sometimes impatient with the lack of percentages and other formatting aspects of her book. I was also turned off by her starter methods, which is what I read first in her book when I got it a while back, and may have neglected to read more of her book for that reason. However, your photos were so appealing, and I had to give it a try. I'm so happy to be over the hump on understanding how it works, and the bagel feasting going on here is very satisfying to those passing through the kitchen today. Thanks again for all the good tips along the way. You were very helpful on a number of details that made it much easier to feel confident I was somewhere in the right ballpark on everything.
Bill
Bagel Gods
Those are beauties, Bill. You and Susan, for two, busy putting the lie to what I've read in several places--that you can make tasty but not pretty home bagels. I was not familiar with salt-topped bagels til a friend who haunts New York told me about them as their family's favorite. And myself I like a slighty pudgy bagel, so I can't concur that batch 1 fell short in any respect. Oh, and did you use the hole-punch or the snake-shape method? Like Susan's, they look seamless and perfect.
snake shape method
Hi Browndog,
I was pleased with these, and they are disappearing quickly. The salt ones are the most popular. You're right that in NJ and NYC both, the salt ones are popular. I remember taking great pleasure going to the bagel store as a kid and getting a salted, toasted, buttered bagel. I notice they are disappearing more quickly. I did some dill and fennel seed topped also. My son preferred the poppy seed and salt one. I thought the best were caraway and anise.
I used the snake shape method, same as Susan. It was really quite easy. The tip about lightly spraying them with water before shaping was very good, especially for the later ones, which were drying out a little on the surface.
The boiling process was easier than I expected. The other thing I noticed was that, if anything, I needed to go a little faster, as they rose more than I expected in the short time I dilly-dallied shaping them and then later when I took them out to prepare for boiling.
Bill
GORGEOUS bagels!
Tell us more, susanfnp!
Katie in SC
That really looks good
That really looks good ,Great job!
zainab
Whoa, those look like chewy bagels
They're beauiful and look delicious. What recipe did you use? weavershouse