The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

10 Hour Sour and Doughometer

hungryscholar's picture
hungryscholar

10 Hour Sour and Doughometer

Having grown up in San Jose, CA, SF sourdough is what I think of when I think sourdough and thanks to many posts on this site, especially the ones concerning Larraburu, such as this one: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17730/divine-inspirationfor-me-it-way-larraburu-brother039s-sf-sd-what-was-it-you have given me a lot of inspiration and I feel like I'm getting closer to being able to get the sour I want without having it taste like whole wheat or rye. I've been keeping the mother starter at room temp and feeding it 1 part starter : 1 part water : 1 part AP : 1 part WW. I still don't have any clear flour, which seems to be what's providing the necessary ash content in the Larraburu formula, so I've been adding a portion of WW as a placeholder of sorts.

SFish Sourdough

50g stiff levain (refrigerated after refreshing the mother starter)

25 g whole wheat

275g KA all purpose

180g warm water (170g + 10g after 5-10 min. autolyze)

6g salt

I mixed everything but the salt and 10g of water and let it rest for 5-10 min. and then added the remaining ingredients and hand kneaded ( 5 minutes?) to combine. I let it rise in ther oven, aiming to keep temp around 86 F by alternating oven light on/off. After about 5 hours I did a few S&Fs, preshaped and rested for 5 minutes, and then shaped as a boule and proofed in a towel lined bowl back in the oven at the same temp for an additional 4.5 hours. Then I preheated oven and ceramic baking dish to 500 F. When I added the dough I dropped the oven to 425 F. Steamed for 20 minutes lid on and an additional 15-20 min. with the lid off.

The flavor was more or less spot on with what I was looking for, definitely sour without being too sour, and it still had good shape. I didn't use steam during proofing and the outside of the loaf got dry so that may have helped it keep the shape during the long proof.

Since there doesn't appear to be a poke test equivelant for pH or TTA, I'll confess I tried a tiny bit of the dough a few times as it was proofing. And I also tried out the method of putting a small piece of dough in water to see when it would be light enough to float. I also added some corn oil to try and gauge further change over a longer proofing time. For a while I thought it wouldn't work, but sure enough, soon after I had shaped the loaf the dough ball started to float. Strange dough blob in action photos below:

Start:

5 Hours:

6 Hours:

7 Hours:

8 Hours:

Still looking for a handheld TTA meter though...

Comments

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Nice lift on that bread.  Interesting test method as well.  Never seen that before.  Thanks for sharing!

John

hungryscholar's picture
hungryscholar

Thanks- I first saw it in Chad Robertson's Tartine Bread to test if the levain is ready for use and then again in Joe Ortiz's Village Baker and I finally got around to giving it a go.

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

I use this float method to test the levain after it has sat overnight to preferment.  I have never tried it with the proofed dough.  Interesting.

John

isand66's picture
isand66

Nice looking bake.

pepperhead212's picture
pepperhead212

Like you, I am always trying to make that perfect SF sourdough, but it has eluded me. Now that I have that proofer I have been trying the methods using the higher temps, like yours. This is the first one that has a constant high, rather than some room temp, as well. I will try this very soon. I will also try the methods on the link you posted above (don't know how I missed that!).

How often do you feed the firm levain? And did you sift some bran out of the ww, or just use it 100%? I don't have clear flour, but I do have some higher ash artisan flour I can use in it.

Thanks again, and I'll let you know how it goes.

Dave

hungryscholar's picture
hungryscholar

Thanks! I'll be interested to hear how it goes. I'm hoping to get my hands on a proofer myself, as much fun as it is playing human thermostat. This time it was more or less rising in the oven with mixing, kneading, and then the last 30 min or so of proof outside the oven while I preheated it. Before you try out the linked methods you might also check out dmsnyder's blog on this site if you haven't already, he was likewise on a SF sour quest and tried (and tweaked) Larraburu: San Francisco Sourdough Bread using Larraburu Bros. formula and Larraburu two - variations on a classic San Francisco Sourdough.

I feed my starter about once a day, unless I forget, going from around 100g of starter down to 25g or so and refreshing with 25g water, and 25g each of stone ground WW and KA AP flours. The first time I had a starter I had the soup in the fridge sort of method and don't think I weighed anything and not sure I could always bring myself to throw out the discard, which is one reason why I keep such a small amount.

 

pepperhead212's picture
pepperhead212

Looks and smells great, and the method was simple.  Have to go to work tomorrow, otherwise I would have tested it in a few hours.  I took some photos, but can't fool with that now, either, plus I have to cut it and take one then. 

I almost feel like setting the alarm and getting up in a few hours to see how it tastes .  :)   Thanks!

Dave

hungryscholar's picture
hungryscholar

Sounds familiar- I often have bread that comes out of the oven in the evening that I don't wind up tasting until the next day, which is fine for something I've made before, but if not...

 

pepperhead212's picture
pepperhead212

It's got that perfect level of sour; as you noted, sour, but not too sour. And this should be easy to duplicate, compared to recipes calling for retarding the dough, which has too many variables, in my experience.

Dave

hungryscholar's picture
hungryscholar

So glad it worked out. What temp did you end up setting your proofer at?

pepperhead212's picture
pepperhead212

...my Mom!   She grew up in SF, met my Dad there, they married there, and my DS was born there, so she yearns for the SF sourdough, and she loved it when I took some to her.  I told her that I think I have gotten a recipe I can duplicate, and she told me I was going to have to make a large loaf for Easter dinner, just to be sure! LOL

I put the proofer at 86º, as you suggested, then did 3 S&Fs after 5 hrs, rested, and shaped it, then rose it 4 1/2 hrs.  I cooked it on a stone, covered with an inverted top to a Chinese steamer, wrapped in foil - amazing what we will find that works well, when we can't find something! I baked it covered for 20 min.  It sealed very well, as when I tipped it open a bit to shoot some more moisture in at 10 min, it was still steamy.   I started @ 500º, and reduced to  425º when I put it in, as you suggested, and baked it 45 min, since it was a little larger.  

  I'll see if the photos go through - my first try on this site:

Well, it didn't work, using the url from photobucket, so I either didn't downsize them enough (800 pixels wide) or something. I played with it enough for now, so until I learn how, here is the SF Sourdough Album.

hungryscholar's picture
hungryscholar

Glad it worked out- and thanks for the pictures. Let me know if you want me to try and post them here.

pepperhead212's picture
pepperhead212

I tried the Insert/Edit Image icon and put the url in, after copying and resizing them to 800x600 (should it be smaller?), but didn't fill in all the things below - I figured that was only extra, but not necessary, but maybe that's what was missing.   Also tried the html, but that didn't work.  I figured I'd fool with it tomorrow night, as late as necessary, since I'm off Wednesday!   

Thanks for your help, and, again, for the recipe! 

BTW, did you also try those other recipes you posted the links to?  I saw the one that David Snyder got the best sour with was the one he retarded, so I was skeptical about trying that.  The first Larraburu one you posted was not a retarded dough, but one with very high temp - 105º - for at least one of the proofings, so I am thinking of trying that, since I could do that with the proofer.

Dave

 

hungryscholar's picture
hungryscholar

I posted the pics by pasting in the URL from your photobucket site. You can also upload them to this site but it is a bit more fiddly- someone on here suggested MS Office Picture Manager which I happened to have- it has options to resize for the web as well as to compress the file. I'm betting there are some online editors that will do something similar. I think the pics I use tend to be under 400 x 700, but I'm just using the preset "web" size from the software, so I'm not sure exactly. This post has a good set of steps for uploading pics: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/12601/hamburger-buns#comment-74588

I haven't tried the Larraburu as posted with the 105 F temps, but I am tempted- so many options, so much bread to eat! Retarding the loaf to develop sour is another accepted route- it's what Jeffrey Hamelman suggests to get more sour out of his Vermont Sourdough, for example. I did get a nice accidental sour flavor from refrigerating a dough with 25% multi-grains (wheat, flax, rye, garbanzo- whatever I had handy).

 

pepperhead212's picture
pepperhead212

I assume you found the downsized photos I had on my main library, rather than the one I posted the link for above.  Those are the ones I was playing with, and I tried instructions on the the 74588 link you gave here, too, but I have to play around with that, too.  I'll go get some dough rising, then come back and figure out what I'm missing.

Dave


   

 

 

pepperhead212's picture
pepperhead212

I made a double recipe for Easter dinner - 32 oz/909g final loaf - and it was a hit - everyone loved it, and those who have had SF SD said that it was the first time they had tasted anything like that in years!  This time I baked it in a 4 qt enameled CI dutch oven, and it turned out great.  Just the right amount of sour again.  I'll try a circular slash next time - the only thing I will change, in order to prevent the burned tips.    

Dave

 

 

hungryscholar's picture
hungryscholar

Excellent- so glad it's working out. I've baked in various pots as well as done the bowl on top method and as long as I've got something to trap the steam it works out great. I hear the circular slash is a tricky one although I did just get a lame, so I'm eager to see what it does vs. using a knife to do the slashing.

Happy Easter!

HungryS