The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

40% Rye With Ground Seeds

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

40% Rye With Ground Seeds

I have been excited to bake a simple rye bread since my starter had become ready to use.  Also, I went to a local organic mill and stocked up an all sorts of grains, flours as well as a hard to find Puy lentil from France.  I chose to do a 40% Rye with some toasted and roughly ground seeds (sunflower, flax and caraway) within.  I also got to use a brotform for the first time.  I will update with crumb photos, but I have a feeling I should have seen more oven spring and height from a formula such as this one.  I did forget to bulk ferment an hour, so I just proofed for a full 2 hours.  Any rye experts out there, please let me know if this could most likely be the cause of such a poor spring.

Comments

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi John,

You flatter me with your request for feedback on a rye loaf...I must correct you because I am not....I know more about using freshly ground whole grains as that is all I bake with BUT I know a bit about rye so I will tell you what I know other than I am no expert.

What I know:

MiniOven, Ananda, Hanseata, Hansjokiem, (sp? on last name)  JuergenKrauss, PiPs, Codruta and Varda all know more than I do :-)

My comments on this loaf:

I had to smile when I read you forgot the bulk ferment because I did that too on a deli rye I was making and couldn't figure out why the dough was so easy to shape and handle.  When I realized my error I did bunch it all back up and allowed it to do a bulk ferment because I knew I needed more yeasties and beasties to rise the dough within the time I had in my day.

So first comment is that I would probably have let the dough proof a lot longer due to fewer yeasties to rise the loaf.

You didn't mention hydration.  If it had a high hydration that would explain the lack of rise too as rye doesn't have the structure wheat does and when I do ryes with high hydration I use loaf pans to add support.  The deli rye I bake out of the book 'Inside the Jewish Bakery' is a 40% rye formula with caraway but has a low hydration and it can be proofed free form and it does hold it shape and has a lot of spring AFTER it has bulk fermented prior to proofing :-)

I have to say the crust color is really nice on this loaf and the crumb looks nice to me too but I am no expert on reading crumb shots so hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I will add a more constructive comment.

As people say here a lot - taste rules - so, I ask, how did this taste?  I know that when I started baking I made loaves that I considered flops but my kids loved them!  They frequently request that I bake ones the way I used to but I can't remember how I did it anymore though I think many were not kneaded enough.....

Well, thats the end of my guesses :-)

Take Care,

Janet

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Janet.

I had a feeling the missed bulk ferment would be the main issue.  The flavour is actually not bad but it is dense due to it not opening up enough.  It actually tastes a lot like a dense San Francisco style sourdough and less like a rye.  That may change in a day or two.  The recipe was titled by the writer as 40% RYE SOURDOUGH, so that should have tipped me off on the potential flavour profile.

I also agree with you on the flops still tasing good.  They sure as heck aren't ending up in the garbage.  I have a feeling this loaf will be ok toasted with some peanut butter.

I appreciate the help and feedback :)

John

Mirko's picture
Mirko

Since October 2012 I'm watching/reading German blog for Professional Bakers. First time I couldn't understand theirs recipes and techniques. Bulk fermentation 10-20 min; final fermentation 50-60 min (for Rye breads 50% Rye flour and higher). My favorite book is Hamelman's 'Bread', and in his recipes bulk ferm. is 1-2.5 hours. I started to compare his sourdough (Rye breads) recipes with German professional bakers recipes and was a bit confused. I couldn't understand what is difference between Hamelman's and German's recipes because they are very similar. After some time of studies I found out what is  different : Mixing style

Hamelman is using improved mixing style and German bakers are using intensive mixing style!

Improved mix: The dough is generally of a medium-soft consistency and need a longer bulk fermentation (1-2,5hours with folds) to the final gluten structure.

Intensive mix: The ingredients are incorporated in low speed and the dough is then mixed in high speed to the point of full gluten development. Only short bulk fermentation is required: 10-20 min.

Next difference: they are using Lab made sourdough (in german: Reinzucht / translate to english 'pure breeding' sourdough) or perfect sourdough starter. Pure and extremely active starter.

For us, homebakers,  is some times very hard to made good rye breads. We dont have a lab made perfect rye sourdough, most of us have only small kitchen mixers and are dough is some time undermixed and some time overmixed.

My quess for your bread is :too long final fermentation, did you used commercial yeast in your recipe?. DDT can be a next issue, rye dough need 80-82°F DDT.

Please give us more details:DDT, amout of yeast, final ferm. temperature...

Mirko

 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Mirko. Hvala lepo!  Thank you for the feedback.  I forgot how knowledgeable you are with rye.  Here is the exact formula I used, with mistake notes added:

40% Rye Sourdough

Rye sour build – 14 hrs 72 degrees

 

 

Rye Starter

10.5g

 

Half dark half light rye flour mix

214g

 

Water

214g

 

 

 

 

Final dough

 

 

Rye sour

428g

 

Organic plain flour

321.5g

 

Water

170.5g

 

Salt

9.5g

 
   

Method

  1. Mix rye sour and leave overnight to ferment
  2. Next day disperse rye sour in water and add flour.
  3. Mix in bread machine for 15 mins till developed
  4. Add salt and knead for a further 10 mins until dough starts to show signs of smoothness.
  5. Bulk ferment one hour FORGOT THIS STEP
  6. Gently preshape. Bench rest 20 mins. Gently shape into batard.
  7. Final proof one hour at room temperature (80°).  I FINAL PROOFED FOR 2 HOURS
  8. Baked with steam at 450° for 10 mins then reduce temperature to 400° and bake a further 30 mins.
Mirko's picture
Mirko

Hi, John

with out yeast in your recipe longer bulk ferm. could help (3-4hr) but better at room temp. otherwise your bread

could be very sour. Extend sourdough proofing time to 16-18 hours. Maybe try with 465°F for 10 min. and then go down.

Mirko

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

bad to me.  You cans see where the loaf sprang fairly decent by pulling itself off the flat bottom around the entire edge.  The is some bloom and it did crack on the bottom trying to set itself free.  By not doing a bulk ferment you missed out on redistributing much more yeast around after it had multiplied itself and made a few holes.  As a result, the longer proof made  some larger irregular holes than it otherwise would have had.  It did spring and isn't dense for a 40% rye.  I think when you bake this again you will be surprised at how much it resembles this bake rather than looking so much different.

What was the % volume increase in the brotform?  I'm guessing it rose pretty well.  Looks like a good deli rye sandwich bread that needs some pastrami on it  to me:-)

Bake on!

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thanks dabrownman for your comments.  Still learning rye.

I believe the proof showed approx. 10-15% rise?  Not a heck of a lot.  I am comparing my bake to other 40% ryes on here (eg. PiPs) and theirs had amazing lift and height.  Thank you for explaining the bottom crack, I was wondering why that happened in both of my rye bakes.

Also, it tastes more like a sourdough bread than a rye bread to me.  Perhaps I chose the wrong recipe to what I was after.  Eitherway, it will provide some ok toasts :)

John

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

10-15% rise for this kind of bread is not nearly enough.  With 40% rye and only half of that dark rye, you probably could let irt proof to 50-60% minimum - just give it time.  I'm betting your rugbrot rose 25% and it was chock full of stuff.  I've got a 50% whole grain multi-grain bread started that has an additional 80%  whole grain soaker, 80% whole grain scald with some other non scalded seeds and  nuts too which I plan on letting rise 25-30% in the tin.  I'm hoping it will look like your rugbrot on the insid when done - nice and open for this kind of bread.

If you want larger holes in the 40% rye then I think you can let it proof longer 3-4 hours in the winter until it is at least 50% larger than when it went into the brotform and still keep most of the spring. 

Happy Baking John

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

The recipe I was working off of called for a one hour proof at 78 degrees.  I had it for 2 hours at 78-80 degrees.  I was more worried that it would overproof but probably should have let it rise as you said.  I am looking for the next rye recipe that catches my eye, and will be a bit more careful this time.

You'd be proud of me.  I got bag loads of whole grain berries from a local mill and incorporating them into dishes.  Tonight making a roasted pork tenderloin with a hard red wheat berry and quinoa root vegetable medley.  Only a matter of time that I take on sprouting these crazy little things.

John

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

would be sprouting before long - can't make malts without sprouts and bread without sprouts; malts,  soakers, seeds; nuts, fruits  and sprouted grain is .......ust plain old bread :-)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Even with a high rye, some kind of interruption of the rise (whatever we call it, even just to scale dough and plop it into a brotform) helps with the crumb structure.   As rye flour decreases from 100% and gluten flour increases (in this case 60%)  the more you can manipulate and let the dough proof.   The wheat takes up the slack and lengthens your allowable proofing time.  Drop the temp to 70°F and you get more time.  The dough will act more like a wheat dough than a rye dough.  

I can see some heavily spiced potato salad (with some grated cheese) on top of those slices, topped with ringlets of chives or sweet paprika.  

Lovely baskets.   You got an electric bread cutter?  Such even slices!  Don't be afraid of crushed coriander and fennel seeds to add to the caraway.  Oh, and elaborate your starter with a half to one slice of your seedy rye loaf.  Just crumble into it.  (and reduce the flour and water a wee bit.  You've got to try it! 

Mini o altus pusher

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Altus scares me but I will give it a try once I have the basics of rye breads such as this one ironed out first.

I am a sneaky little bugger.  I slice all my loaves at a major grocery store very close to my home.  It's a heavy duty electronic one that you can adjust the slice size by the millimeter.  I wanted these slices a bit thinner but it does a perfect job slicing all my loaves.  I wish I had the guts to ask them permission, but if they say no, then I won't be able to even sneak anymore.

I love the brotforms and baskets I just picked up.  Can't wait to use them more. 

The potato salad with cheese sounds perfect.  I just had a few slices today of this rye in my lunch today.  I am still always surprised at how much the bread transforms closer to a true rye texture and flavour as the days pass.  It went from a sourdough flavour and texture the first day, to a true rye today.

John

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Mini (or any other rye expert for that matter).  As for mixing/kneading rye breads, would you have any concerns with my methods?

I use a bread machine ONLY for mixing the ingredients.  I then autolyse usually for about 20 - 30 mins.  Then I allow the machine to mix the dough for about 10 - 15 minutes.  The machine does not have a speed setting so it just mixes on a constant medium.  Do you think maybe I over mixed?  Under mixed?  I thought I read somewhere that one should not over develop rye breads?

John