The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

My First Rye Bread Bake

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

My First Rye Bread Bake

I just baked my first rye bread.  After much anticipation and worry, I took the plunge, and thanks to the help from some of you in the last day, I have to say, it wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be.  Thanks to Mirko for the recipe.  This one is a Mischbrot rye.

I haven't cut into it yet as I hear with rye breads, one should let it cool for longer than other breads.  Very unfair.

I will update the post with the crumb shots.  I am a bit skeptical on it turning out the way I was hoping.  For those who saw my previous post on trying to find a recipe that would come close to the photos of a store bought rye I had, will know that I was looking for a stiff, dry crumb like this:

I have a feeling this recipe will turn out a crumb more soft and fluffy.  I guess I'll have to wait and see with the slicing.  I'm sure I will enjoy the flavour anyway.  Thanks again Mirko for the recipe.

My 1980's special.  Tried it out for the first time in this bake and loved it.

Damn, do I ever need brotforms badly.  X-mas is around the corner.

These are photos of the loaf after it had cooled about 30 minutes.  All the cracks in the crust, is that normal?  I have seen cracking like this on some store bought French loaves but never in a rye.  Are these cracks regarded as a defect?

Based on the photos, any rye suggestions? Tips?

John

ananda's picture
ananda

I'd rather eat your loaf than the styore-bought one!

Nice work John

Best wishes

Andy

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Well thank you so much Andy.  I just posted the crumb photos, and I was correct with my prediction.  Although the bread is nice and soft and flavourful, it is not what I was after.  The crumb turned out very soft, almost like Wonderbread soft, which is great for some loaves but the one I was after is more stiff and almost like pumpernickel...but nothing like pumpernickel.  Er...I'll quite while I'm ahead :)

John

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

crusts are not considered the very best in bread baking, then the Earth will have cracked open and swallowed us all up whole!!!

No one should want dry crumb rye bread either when soft, moist ones are available.  That turkey roaster of yours should never be replaced either :-)

Very nice baking my friend.  I'm sure you like this bread better than the store bought one you wanted to copy by far.

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thanks dabrownman!  I don't mean dry as in stale dry...I have been trying to explain the crumb, but can not find the right words.  The store bought one above Klosterbrot, has a more stiff crumb.  The one that I baked today came out great but has a very soft crumb, which is great most of the time, but this particular rye I was hoping to make is closer to a pumpernickel stiffness and heartiness, but completely a rye.  I have no idea how else to describe what I am after.

The roaster is a great method for steam.  I am glad you have had success with it as well.  I was starting to feel like the lone turkey using the roaster.

John

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

crumb came out super too!  Very nice baking.  Now you can start upping the rye and hydration and eventually arrive at a 100% and possibly a 100% hydration pumpernickel.  I couldn't find any pumpernickel berries for the life of me so I had to take some  pumper-dime berries I found on the Internet ( you can find anything there) and cut each on in half to make my own pumpernickel.  What a chore :-)  What ever you do - don't do that !

That's some nice light rye you baked up in that turkey roaster !

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thanks dabrownman :)

I will try some more rye % recipes soon.  Hey, do you put a bit of boiling water into your roaster when you use it?  I always carefully pour about a 1/4 - 1/2 cup boiling water into it right after I score the bread and before placing in oven.

John

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

that keeps the bread off the bottom of the roaster 1/2 " .....I put about 1/4 c of non water in the bottom before shutting the lid.  My roaster is near  1/4" thick Magnalite and the water instantly steams if the bread is going into a hot oven and DO.  You will have to try one going into a cold DO into a cold oven.  Janet and I don't see much difference any more than we do putting salt in the autolyse or not. 

If you want the crumb texture you describe you will have to lower the hydration and up the rye as Mini and Andy say.  They are the two rye guru's to learn from on TFL.

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Here's the crumb.  Pretty much what I was thinking it would turn out like.  I have bought rye breads with crumb like this before.  Usually they are labelled as Canadian Light Rye.  I love this type of rye, but am still after the type of rye I posted above (Klosterbrot).  Any help in finding a recipe to produce that kind of crumb will be much appreciated!  Perhaps more rye flour and less bread flour?

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi John

A True Pumpernickel is 100% Rye.   That is not what is in the packet you photographed.    It may be a great loaf of bread, but it isn't Pumpernickel.   Maybe you should aim for a Pain de Seigle?.. like this: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/27970/seigle-d%E2%80%99auvergne   That's 80% Rye.   You will need to be over 50% to achieve what you are looking for, but you can use a lighter rye flour in the mix.

Best wishes

Andy

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Andy.  I only used the term pumpernickel to compare/explain that rigid crumb quality I was going for.

I had a feeling that more rye flour % would do it.  Thanks for the suggestion, I will try that out next time.

John

Mirko's picture
Mirko

Very nice, John! Cracks in the crust are sighn of quality - really nice bread.

Many german bakers use fat (Butter, lard or oil) for baking and goal is tighter crumb because german people don't like open crumb with big wholes. Addition of butter (up to 5%) is possible or change the recipe 40 rye/60 wheat. 

Here 60% Rye with flaxseed :

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thank you Mirko. That one looks nice too! I will be trying a higher rye ratio next time. Do I have to make any adjustments to water/yeast/salt if I change the ratio of rye and bread flour?

John

Mirko's picture
Mirko

10% more rye is not a big deal, maybe small adjustment to water (a bit more water).

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

A meal that has been on my mind long before baking this rye today.  Potato and Leek soup with Pastrami on Rye with Slaw.

To be honest, I still have yet to be convinced on the craze of this deli meat.  Does nothing for me.  I may need to go to New York and get my mind blown.

John

Floydm's picture
Floydm

I don't know where you got that pastrami, but tonight we had pastrami from Save-On on Eric's Favorite Rye and it was weak stuff.  The smoked meat you find around here is way better (and is likely how I'm going to use the second loaf of Eric's Rye I made).  That said, I need to pop into a Safeway here soon because in Oregon the Safeway deli carried a Primo Taglio Pastrami that was incredibly good.  So you may just need to keep looking.

Nice looking bread though!

-Floyd 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Floyd. Thanks for the compliment :) Actually the pastrami was exactly that. From Save-On. Never again. I will however, try the one you mention from Safeway, if they do carry that kind here. That's funny you use the word 'weak' to describe the Save-On pastrami. I said to my wife last night that it was tasteless and weak. I guess here in Canada we are very well known for our Montreal Smoked Meat, so I should have probably stuck to that, but I was so excited about my first rye bake that I wanted to recreate a NY classic, but who am I to mess around with NY.  Badabing.

John

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

on some pink curing salt to make Eric's Pastrami.  He gave me his recipe not long ago when I told him I had lost mine after looking everywhere for it with no luck.  From what I remember of my old one, also  NY Deli sourced, that is nearly identical.  Cant't wait to get one going for the Holidays at the end of the year. 

Franko's picture
Franko

Hi John,

Despite it not being the kind of rye you were after it's an excellent result for a first mix of rye, well done! The Dimpilmeier product you show is one I've had before and my best guess is it's somewhere in the 50%-60% range of rye content. If you have or have access to a copy of Hamelman's "Bread" my suggestion is to try his 66 Percent Sourdough Rye page 210. I think this will get you pretty close to what you're looking for. I'd be happy to send you the recipe in a PM if you like, just let me know.

All the best,

Franko

ldavis47's picture
ldavis47

You could deflate the dough prior to when you would have proofed it, give it another turn and then do final proof. This will make the holes more even and may tighten the crumb.

But your rye looks delicious. 

Lloyd

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thanks for the advice Lloyd.  I actually inadvertently deflate the dough as I was shaping it prior to proofing.  My hands are not quite feather light in shaping yet.

John

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Well done, John.

I second Andy that you need to go over the 50% rye mark to achieve what you want.

Juergen

PS.:

I asked Dimpflmeyer's about the composition of their "Klosterbrot", and this is from their reply:

"The bread you discuss is a rye based bread with some wheat flour" 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Wow, Juergen, they sure are helpful over there aren't they? :)

Thank you for the comments, I greatly appreciate them.  What would you say about the cracks in the crust?

John

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

to get such cracks!

Some bakers spray their loaves after baking to create them.

ananda's picture
ananda

Thanks for that Juergen,

It's clearly a very light rye that is used.

Best wishes

Andy

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

I tried 3 different brands over here (Doves, Shipton, and the rye they use at the Real Parisserie), all too dark.

Will try to source some in Germany when visiting my parents next time.

Juergen

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Juergen,

Have you tried this? http://bakerybits.co.uk/The-Priors-Organic-White-Rye-Flour-P2380438.aspx

Best wishes

Andy

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

next time I order from Bakery Bits.

Looks interesting.

I'll make my next batch of "Berliner Landbrot"  (70% light rye from Dove's) on Wednesday, I'll post pictures then.

Thanks,

Juergen

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Link 

I see absolutely no rye bran flakes in the picture of the loaf and would call it a low hydration loaf.  I would repeat the same loaf you just made with 30% rye, eliminate any fats and lower the hydration to a stiff dough.  Try for 60%  total hydration and work the moisture into the loaf by hand if the machine can't.   If you can sift out the bran, do so.  If the dough doesn't come together, add water (whey) a tablespoon (20g at a time keeping track of the loaf weight using a scale) working up the moisture.   Record.  I would suggest using a large sourdough preferment containing all the rye flour and rely on dough relaxing with fermentation.  

Even if the crumb doesn't come out, you will have established the lower end of the hydration for this loaf.  But I do think you will be closer to it than the last loaf.

Mini

ananda's picture
ananda

I think Mini's ideas about the formula construction are correct.   It is low hydration, and long-fermented.   This is the best means to achieve the crumb which you describe John.

The customer comment on the site which Mini provided the link for is very interesting; not complimentary at all!

I found this page on the Dimpflmeyer site: http://dimpflmeierbakery.com/breads-rye.html#klosterbrot454g

I now suspect that the level of rye is only a little higher than the 30% used in John's example.   Note that rye flour is listed twice in the ingredients, as it is an intrinsic part of the sourdough which is listed separately.   I'm thinking it's at least 35% rye, but less than 50%, and I'd plump for 35 if pushed.

The whey contains acids which will strengthen the dough during the long fermentation.   This bread has been posted about on TFL before:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3218/german-rye-bread

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3565/german-farmhouse-bread

It sounds like it's really a fairly bland whiteish loaf by German standards.   Much wisdom to be found on one of those threads from Eric...and Mini too.   One for the old-timers to remember.

Best wishes

Andy

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Andy, yes the comment from that one consumer was probably from someone who had never tried other types of rye other than what they are used to - probably deli rye.

I believe the link you posted for the german farmhouse bread might be close to the right track!  Thank you so much for finding that one.

John

suave's picture
suave

Andy, I've had this bread and I assure you that it is at least 50% rye, likely more.

ananda's picture
ananda


Mike,

Thanks for the assurance; I don't doubt you.   I used the list below provided on the link cited in my post above.

Ingredients: Unbleached Wheat Flour, Natural Spring Water, Rye Flour, Sour Dough (Rye Flour, Natural Spring Water, Bacterial Culture), Yeast, Salt, Cultured Whey Powder (Whey and Bacterial Culture).

I assumed that the list implies greatest first.   The greatest amount of rye I could come up with was c.60% when I re-visited this list just now.   I'm still guessing the rye flour is very much refined; is that the case?

Best wishes

Andy

suave's picture
suave

Andy, but the list is different:

Rye Flour, Natural Spring Water, Wheat Flour, Sour Dough (Rye Flour, Natural Spring Water, Bacterial Culture) Salt, Yeast, Cultured Whey Powder (Whey and Bacterial Culture).
ananda's picture
ananda

Here is the link to the page I mentioned on the Co. website [Germany]: http://dimpflmeierbakery.com/breads-rye.html#klosterbrot454g

There are 3 sizes of this bread.   The small loaf [454g] has an ingredients list as in my comment, with unbleached wheat flour appearing first.   Then there is loaf weighing 907g and one at 1.81kg, which has an ingredients list  like the one in the comment from suave.

Now I really am confused.   Is the small loaf made to a different formula, or, is it a mistake in the labelling????

Best wishes

Andy

suave's picture
suave

It's a mistake.  It's not really a small loaf baked separately, it's a pound of sliced bread, and if you look at the picture of the bag they have there, you can see that rye goes first.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

them.  Note that as the slices get bigger the protein goes down and carbs go up.  

polo's picture
polo

....................Dimpflmeier is in Toronto. I used to order bread from them quite often. Delicious stuff.

ananda's picture
ananda

The breads are made in both Germany and Canada.   Website information for the bread under discussion is exactly the same for both countries

Best wishes

Andy

polo's picture
polo

I was under the impression that Dimpflmeier breads were only made in Canada. Learn something new every day, I guess.

Donkey_hot's picture
Donkey_hot

Hi John,

Your loaf looks great.   In general, dough with only 30% Rye should not behave much different from your ordinary wheat bread.  Takes some time to start feeling it and timing its development.

MickiColl's picture
MickiColl

can you post Merko's recipe for the  rye bread please ? it's exactly what I've been looking for .. especially the soft crumb

or e mail it to me .. mickicoll@msn.com

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Here you go Micki:

German Mischbrot (Mixedbread)

Here the recipe : Mischbrot 30/70 (30%Rye / 70% Wheat/Bread flour) . 2 loaves 860g. Color of the bread will be brighter if you will use medium rye or darker if use dark rye flour.

Sourdough: ripen for 14-18 h at 21°c/70°F

Medium Rye or Dark rye(better medium)......  160g (100%)

Water...... 128g (80%)

Rye Starter (100%)....... 8g (5%) If you like more sour taste use 10% starter (16g)

Total weight ...... 296g

 

Final dough:

Bread flour...... 700g

Medium rye(or Dark rye)...... 140g

Salt....... 21g

Fresh yeast....... 22g

Water....... 540g

Sourdough....... 296g

Add all ingredients to mixing bowl. Mix on first speed 8 min. and 2 min. on second speed (I don't know wich type of Mixer you have, so your's mixing time will be somewhat differently)

DDT: 26°C/78°F

Bulk fermentation: 30 min.

Divide into 2 egual parts (about 860g) and shape into desired form (I shaped into oval form and let ferment in baking pans)

Final fermentation: about 60 min. at 28°C/82.4°F or even  long at cooler tempereture.

Baking: pre-steam your oven, load bread and bake at 450°F/230-240°C for 40-50 min. Remove steam after 10-15 min and bake in dry oven. To have nice crispy crust bake last 5 min. with open door (use tablespoon to get 1 inch open).

Let cool for at least 12 hours.

MickiColl's picture
MickiColl

can't thank you enough .. but one more quetion please .. I have the same Magnalite roaster you used (it's near 40 years old) just how do I use it to bake this wonderful rye ? you said shape into oval forms and ferment in baking pans

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

as confused as I am most of the time.  I'm the one with the Magnalite roater - not John.  I'm not sure what kind of roaster he used to bake this great rye bread.   My wife inherited hers from her mother and it is the best bread baking gizmo we have.  It puts crust on bread like no other DO because you can add water to the bottom and it stays off the bread.  I'm pretty sure John shapes ovals and either baskets them or uses a couche  for proofing and then un-molds them onto parchment so he can easily lower them into the hot turkey roaster he uses. 

I have baked all kinds of bread in mine. Even loaf tinned breads turn out great.  Give your magnalite a try with the trivet in the bottom.  Let the roaster heat up in the oven to balking temperature, drop an oval into it with a parchment paper sling and a piece of parchment under the oval so the bread doesnlt stick to the trivet.  Put an 1/8 c of water into the bottom and put the lid on.  Steam for 15 - 20 minutes, depending on dough size, then take the lid off for 5 minutes of uncovered baking.

I then take the bread out of roaster with the handy dandy sling you left inside and let it finish baking on the stone.  You don't have to take it out if you don't want to - I just like the way the bottom turns out better by finish baking on the stone.  When it hits 205 F on the inside its done.

Hope this helps - John can tell you what kind of turkey roaster he uses.

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

I sent you a message explaining my system. :)

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Starter:   

  • White Rye 300g
  • Water 240g   (80% hydration)
  • Rye sour starter  20g  

Dough

  • Water 360g     (for 60% hydration total)
  • Bread Flour 700g   (divided into 550g and 150g)
  • Salt 21g
  • Yeast 11g
  • White Rye starter 560g
  • up to 50g Water (optional, see notes, would raise hydration to 65%)

Total dough weight 1652g   (without added water)

Skip to Dough:  Blend & Autolyse 360g water with 550g bread flour for 20 to 30 minutes. then add the flour rest, salt, yeast and starter. You are better at mixing with a machine so figure that out and write it down.   Try to keep the dough stiff working in the moisture.  Only add extra water (bringing the hydration up toward 65%) if really really, really needed and then try just a little bit first.  Any left over water should be weighed and noted.  I don't think sticky will be a problem at all.  Shape as directed.  You may want a glaze.

I was reading over that old thread and wow, how much I have learned over the years!  Paul K. seems to have nailed the formula but the method still needs tweaking.  There is also the possibility of building the starter in two steps,  to reduce the sourness of building a large preferment with a small amount of starter.  I should look at 1 to 4 starter to flour builds splitting the fermenting time in halves.  That might give a mild cheese flavour.  Get those LABS working.  

I would even go as far to add old rye bread to the starter, reducing some of the water and rye flour equal to the bread weight (close enough. maybe add a tablespoon of water.)  It is just such a good rye flavour.  My rye flour here in Chile is not as fine as that in Austria and I believe not suited for this type of tight bread.  Might have to sift out the bran first.

Mini

Mirko's picture
Mirko

But don't forget, lowering hydration will cause poorer keeping quality, rye flour absorb more water - end result: dry crumb.

Mirko

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Mini,

I am sure you are correct that the rye flour used in this bread is very finely ground....low extraction rate too, I suspect.

Have you noted suave's comment that the rye flour content is at least 50% of the total flour?   But increasing the portion of rye flour is only worth trying if there is access to White Rye flour, surely?

Best wishes

Andy

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss
suave's picture
suave

It's probably a bit too dark, our white rye is typically under 0.60 ash.  I've seen type 720 and it's visibly darker.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

When first presented with this recipe from Song of the Baker, he had mentioned he replaced all the rye flour with white rye, I copied my changes over without thinking about detail.  Sorry.  

The bran not only adds cutting flecks to the crumb but reduces the amount of fine rye flour in the recipe, gram for gram.  There is a big difference in flours and I am now very (x3) sympathetic to all of you with bran flecks in your rye getting flat or dented tops on your 100% rye loaves.  I'm working on solutions yet still trying to keep long wet times.  I will have that figured out soon.

Thanks for the catch, will go back and correct to White Rye.    

I don't think the rye is 50% because of the posted nutritional breakdown of a slice of bread.  The protein and fiber content is much too low for 50% rye even with whey protein in it.     

Mini

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Mini,

Are you staying with 70:30 wheat:rye?   Some suggestion that the rye content is at least 50%; knowledgable source too.

Your comment above led me to think there was more bread flour too.   But note that rye flour appears twice in the list, as it's in the sour dough too.   I reckoned up quickly that it is possible to have wheat flour at 40% and the descending list will still work.   I based my calculations on a total of 165 by Bakers%. That is 100 flour, 60 water and 5 for the salt, yeast and whey.   That is very approximate.

Juergen, Type 815 would probably be fine I guess.

Best wishes

Andy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

That precious amount of sourdough culture could be originally 12 to 20g  (1.2 % to 2%) and then fed the rye flour.  Method is not mentioned.   :)

I can see those wheels churning ...   Mini

ananda's picture
ananda

Mini, you could have 40 of each: bread flour, water, rye flour and sour dough?

That gives 60 rye and 40 wheat.   50/50 is perfectly possible too

Best wishes and cog-grinding

Andy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The bread loaf reminds me of low hydration dough of a bagel.    Are we so sure we want bread flour?  The color is pretty light, almost white.  Knowing the thirsty flours we're dealing with it would be very hard to go under 60% hydration.  We are using sourdough and getting extra bacteria from whey culture.  Lots of possibilities.   Wheat & rye flours must add up to 1000g not including the starter (or does it?)  I noticed that the ingredient list has yeast before salt so there could be a higher amount of yeast than my suggested recipe.

wheat flour  ≥  water  ≥  white rye flour   ≥   rye starter   ≥  20g  yeast  (2%)  ≥  salt 20g (2%)

700g                  600g               300g                 300g to 20g of 60% hydration starter

600g                  600g              400g                 400g to 20g of 60% hydration starter 

500g                  500g              500g                 400g to 20g of 60% hydration starter + 100g more water

400g                  400g              400g                  200g to 20g of 60% hydr starter + 200g more water 

                                                                                 (this above would have to include 200g rye + 200g water but then only 80g of water would be available for the dough so more water would be needed and move the water to the front of the line in the ingredients list.   Unless you can explain it to me, Andy.)  fun exercise.  I wouldn't actually use a 60% hydration starter, I would borrow some of the water from the middle to use my 100% hydration starter)

One thing we might be assuming here.  I don't think that it is law to list the ingredients on the package in Europe.  I don't know Canadian law.  Listing?  More of a guide, and so it may not be law to list the ingredients in declining amounts either.  That the list varies (switching the wheat and rye in order of appearance) I am tempted to think the bread is a 50/50 mixture of flours.  Only way is to bake and compare but I think in the end, homemade will out flavour the factory made.  (especially if we work in some altus not mentioned in the ingredients...  :)  )

The flour in the starter has to be calculated for salt.    

Mini o altus