The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Looking for on-line source for High Protein Red Wheat Berries

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Looking for on-line source for High Protein Red Wheat Berries

I am looking for on-line source for High Protein Red Wheat Berries. I am relatively new to milling. I have used the HRW from http://beprepared.com . My bread is not a light as I'l like, so I am wondering if the a higher protein content may help. 

Any help appreciated.

Dan Ayo

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Dan,

Here is a link to an online source of whole grains.  

If you can find a local source you will save a lot of $$$$.   I can buy a 50# bag of hard red spring wheat - organic, for $38.00.

If you can't locate a source near by, check your health food stores because you may be able to order through them if they carry bulk grains which,  I would imagine, would still be less expensive than an online source.

Good Luck,

Janet

p.S.  Around here the spring wheat tends to be a bit 'stronger' than the winter crop but all of that is variable....

Postal Grunt's picture
Postal Grunt

Many of our local Walmarts carry Wheat Montana hard red wheat berries in 25 lb bags. I think the name is Red Chief for the winter wheat and Bronze Chief for the Spring wheat. If your local Wally World doesn't stock it, they may be able to order some from their warehouse supply centers. Wheat Montana also has a web site for ordering their fine products.

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

I have seen both Bronze Chief (red hard spring wheat) and Prairie Gold (white hard spring wheat) at WalMarts in the past, but have seen no Bronze Chief there during this calendar year.  Has anyone seen the Bronze Chief at their WalMart this year?  I was going to order it directly from Wheat Montana but the shipping charge was horrible!  The wheat costs $11.88 per 25 lbs, but the minimum order is $50.   That is 5 bags, which comes to a total of $59.40 for 125 lbs.  The shipping from Montana to Iowa was another $50.14, making the actual cost of acquiring the wheat come to nearly $22 per bag.  The price for Prairie Gold was even higher, starting at $14.28 per 25 lb bag.  By comparision, the cost at WalMart is essentially the cost of the grain alone, sans shipping.

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

Honeyville

Monthly coupons available(usually). Typically, at least 10% off. Occasionally 15%, and very rarely 20%.

Sign up for their coupon club. http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/

Very cheap shipping($4.49, any size order).

Then there's always Pleasant Hill Grain.

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

Your source doesn't state whether the hard red wheat they sell is winter wheat or spring wheat.  I have found a noticeable difference in the performance of hard spring wheat versus hard winter wheat.  Hard spring wheat usually costs more, but I have found it worth the extra money when making bread.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I called my supplier and they told me it was winter wheat.

 

NUTRITION FACTS
Serving Size: 1/4 cup (53 g)
Servings per Container: Apx 385

Amount per serving
Calories170
Calories from Fat10
% Daily Value*
Total Fat 1 g2%
Saturated Fat 0 g0%
Trans Fat 0 g
Cholesterol 0 g0%
Sodium 0 mg0%
Total Carbohydrates 36 g12%
Dietary Fiber 6 g25%
Sugars 0 g
Protein 8 g15%

From the nutrional information it claims 15% protein. 

It seems my problem may not be protein content, but 100% whole wheat. I'm starting to think that I should try sifting some of the hull out of the flour. My thought is to coarse grind, sift, and then regrind. Does this sound right?

I'll take a picture on my next bake. One of the problems I consistently get it the top of the bread near the side of the pan cracks and separates from the side. Not so much as to destroy the bread. Could it be that the hulls in the whole wheat are damaging the gluten strands? The bread is fairly heavy and dense, but it taste great?

Any help appreciated.

 

Dan Ayo

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

My response consists of several thoughts which all go together but have to be typed in some order, so here goes.

You probably haven't any hulls in your flour, but only bran, unless you really are buying unhulled wheat.  Most places sell hulled wheat berries.  Hulls don't grind properly in a stone burr mill.  I don't know if an impact mill grinds hulls. 

Bran will cut the gluten to some extent, but the presence of the bran is presumably part of why you are grinding your own grain.  That is where most of the fiber is found.   Bran can be softened by pre-soaking, so that the damage to the gluten during kneading is minimized.  Or you can sieve out the bran.  Some people here do that.  I wouldn't bother grinding my own flour if I was going to throw away the bran, but to each his or her own.

Gluten is protein.  A higher protein content wheat usually, but not always, provides more gluten in the dough.  Therefore using a higher protein wheat does help insure that there is sufficient gluten left after whatever damage is caused by the bran.

Finally, it is possible to make good bread from 100% whole grain without throwing away any of it.  Just keep working at it and you will get there.

linder's picture
linder

When I grind my hard red winter wheatberries, I sift the bran out then add it back in once the dough has been almost completely kneaded.  This seems to eliminate the issues I had with bran 'cutting' the strands of gluten. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

That is a beautiful loaf of bread. 

When I mentioned hulls that is not correct, it would be the bran. Like you, I really want the health benefits of 100%WW. A little more information may be helpful to trouble shoot.

The recipe that I am using comes from "Laurle's Kitchen Bread Book". It is found on page 89 and is called "Whole Wheat Sour Dough".

NOTE: I doubled her recipe
Starter - 15 oz starter, 5 oz rye, 10 oz HRW, 12 oz water - leave overnight
Dough - 4 tsp yeast, 20 oz HRW, 5 tsp (I cut back to 3 and noticed a higher rise) salt, 8 oz water 
I've also deviated form the recipe by adding 2 oz corn oil, and 4 oz flax seeds. I have on occasion also included 2 or 3 tbl of vital gluten.
I bake this in 2 USA loaf pans. 

I plan to bake tomorrow and will take a picture and post to the forum. 

I use this bread for toast and sandwiches. I like the fact that I can slice into very thin slices, gernerally 3/8 inch. My meat slicer works great for this. It make a substantial sandwich without too many calories. I've eaten this bread for about a year and I think that it in contributing to my general health. And besides that, it taste great!

 

Question -

I've read that heat while grinding is an enemy of nutritution. I use a Wolf Gang mill. I keep my berries in the freezer and take out what I need just before grinding. This way there is no chance of over heating the flour. Do you see any problems with this?

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

I also use a Wolfgang mill, and mill the flour immediately before using it.  I don't chill the grain before milling, however I see no harm in doing so.  I measured the temperature of the flour with my bread probe and decided that the rise was not nutritionally significant when compared to baking the bread later to an internal temperature of 200 degrees F.  I believe it was no more than 20 F degrees above room temperature when grinding 16 oz of flour.  If you have a temperature probe then you can measure the temperature in the freshly milled flour in your own kitchen.

My suggestion: Try soaking the rest of the flour overnight, without the yeast and salt, in a greater fraction of the total water.  That is, make a starter, pre-soak, and final dough to the same hydration level.  Otherwise the flour won't get enough water for pre-soaking.  Add the salt in the morning, and if the yeast is instant yeast, also the yeast in dry form.  Otherwise reserve just enough water to hydrate the yeast before using it.  I don't use commercial yeast in my bread, by the way.

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I will pre-soak the remainer of the flour tonight. 

So, if I understand correctly, I'll go the following.

Starter - 15 oz starter, 5 oz rye, 10 oz HRW, 12 oz water - leave overnight
For the pre-soak (Dough - 4 tsp yeast, 20 oz HRW, 5 tsp (I cut back to 3 and noticed a higher rise) salt, 8 oz water ) I'll use 20 oz HRW and 8 oz of water.

NOTE: Maybe I should cut back some of the water (12 oz) in the starter and add some of that water to the pre-soak (8 oz). I say this because the starter is fairly wet, and if I follow the orginal formula the pre-soak will be 40% hydration. Seems dry to me. What are your thoughts?

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

What you put in your note is exactly what I meant.  Perhaps reverse the quantities?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

This is an ongoing problem with this bread. I think the gluten is weak, causing the top of the bread (near the pan's edge) to crack. I consistently get this result. The bread seemed to be well kneaded. I am in the practice of working with fairly wet dough.

I'd really like to get this fresh milled whole wheat right. It taste good, but looks terrible.

By-the-way;

I let the bread autolyse and it rose much higher than without. I was amazed how much water the freshly milled flour needed.

 

Any input appreciated,

Dan Ayo

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

that the shaped loaf simply needs more proofing before baking?  That's a lot of blowout for a loaf, especially one in a pan.  Makes me wonder if the dough was underproofed when it went into the oven.

Second thought is shaping - is the outer skin of the shaped loaf uniformly taut when it goes into the pan?  Or somewhat loose, which is weaker and prone to tearing?

Third thought: are two loaves/pans placed in relatively close proximity (say an inch or less) in the oven?  It's typical to see two loaves expand more on the sides that are close to each other.

If none of these are the issue, then try slashing the the top of the loaf along its long axis immediately before placing it in the oven.  It won't stop the expansion but it will control the direction in which it goes and produce a shape with more eye appeal.

Paul

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Dan,

I agree with Paul...underproofing.  Let it proof longer and try scoring it too.  You also might want to decrease the yeast you use a bit and see what happens.

I also use 100% freshly ground whole grains, but like MangoChutney, I use wild yeast as a leavening agent. A book that helped me out hugely was Peter Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads.  His method of working with whole grains revolutionized my bread baking.  You might want to see if you can borrow a copy from your local library so you can take a look and see what you think.

Good Luck and Happy Baking :-)

Janet

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I have Reinhardt's book and it is outstanding. But for taste this recipe it the one I like best. I am almost sure that the problem is with the gluten. I do work with very slack dough and maybe that it part or all of the problem. But the stretchability of the dough is not great. The outer skin is fragile. It is difficult to shape the dough after the intial proofing. I've baked this recipe probably more than 30 times. Is it possible that the bran is cutting the gluten strands and make it fraile?

I think it is properly proofed. Possibly it could be underproofed but I've seen similar results in previous bakings. Actually, I think the autolyse made the bread rise better than every. (Thanks MangoChutney!)

Also, it should be helpful to know that the bread had tremedous oven spring. I think what I really need to know is how to strengthen the elasticity of the dough. I didn't have this problem when I used store bought flour. 

I do wish I would have checked to see if the two loaves I baked had cracks on the facing sides. They both cracked but I don't remember how they were facing. I always thought the cracks were a result of the way they were shaped/rolled.

I left the flax seeds out of this bake to see if they affected the cracking - it didn't.

I really believe that the gluten strands are weak. I use a KitchenAide and I think that it is kneaded properly. I never had this problem before I started milling my own flour. I grind the berries very fine, but I only grind a single time. I hate to remove the bran, because of nutrition. But I may try sifting the bran our of the next batch to see if the results turn out differently.

Thanks for taking the time to help, I appreciate it.

Dan Ayo

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Dan,

Below are 2 links to posts that may shed light on what you are experiencing.  The first deals with kneading until the gluten is fully developed and the second deals with what is happening with the bran in ww flour.

Have you looked into txfarmer's 100% ww shreddably soft sourdough breads?

Here is a link to one and in it I think she links to another one of her posts that shows what the final dough should look like if the gluten has been developed to a strong windowpane.

Prior to seeing her link I was under kneading my ww doughs.  I now get consistently strong ww doughs all of which are freshly ground.

Here is another link that explains what bran really does in ww doughs.  Read the first reply whose author is Debra Wink.

Hope this helps :-)

Good Luck,

Janet

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Maybe bad grain?

I decided to try the recipe again. This time is sifted out the larger pieces of grain. After sifting I reground very fine. I read the article about the particles interfering with the gluten development.

I thought that maybe I was over kneading since I normally use a Kitchen Aide. So I kneaded by hand for about 30 minutes. It didn't seem to build the gluten so I put in the machine and kneaded some more. Every time I tried the window pane test it failed. I am almost positive my problem is gluten development.

Do you think the grain may be the problem?

I didn't start having this problem until I started milling my grain. I've baked with this a lot. I've almost gone through 40 lbs of this HRW.

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Dan,

I can't imagine it is bad grain.  I have a DLX mixer and use freshly ground whole grains every day and do not have the problem you are encountering since learning from txfarmer's blogs on 100% ww breads combined with Peter Reinhart's recommendations of long soaking times for whole grains to help strengthen gluten development.

Keep experimenting and I am sure you will solve the problem.  I know I just had to bake a lot to figure out how best to use the grains I do and most of what I learned I learned here.  You probably already know this but if not I will suggest taking detailed notes and only changing one thing at a time so you know what is doing what.

Good Luck,

Janet