The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Transcript of October 2012 #BreadChat (on Twitter)

bagel_and_rye's picture

Transcript of October 2012 #BreadChat (on Twitter)

Earlier today Chicago Amateur Bread Bakers hosted the October 2012 #BreadChat on Twitter. Now in its ninth month, #BreadChat is a Twitter discussion hour for bakers of yeasted, artisanal breads.

During #BreadChat, @AmateurBakers led the discussion through a handful of questions related to yeasted bread baking. During the October #BreadChat, we discussed techniques for developing one's own bread formulas. We were delighted to welcome back Eric Duhamel (@EricFrenchBaker), Master Baker at Daylesford Organic, as co-host.

Below is the transcript of the chat. Please read from bottom to top, Twitter-style.




AmateurBakers @floursaltwater Tyvärr. Nästa #BreadChat kommer 14:e november kl. 21:00 i Sverige. Hoppas du får delta i! -4:13 PM Oct 24th, 2012



floursaltwater Merde. Missed #breadchat. -4:06 PM Oct 24th, 2012



blogypan @risedough @tiaingle @Miquel_Saborit @AmateurBakersBuenos dias, tardes o noches, según corresponda #breadchat -3:42 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle @Miquel_Saborit @blogypan si pero aquí es la madrugada para#BreadChat muyyyyyy temprano! Hasta la próxima -3:32 PM Oct 24th, 2012



risedough @AmateurBakers I am sorry for coming late to ·#BreadchatThanks for following @risedough -3:18 PM Oct 24th, 2012



Miquel_Saborit @AmateurBakers @blogypan @risedough @thefreshloafsorry I'm late, until next time guys! #breadchat -3:17 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @Miquel_Saborit @blogypan @risedough Look for the#BreadChat transcript, posted @thefreshloaf soon -3:14 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @drmuerte Thank you for spreading the word about today's #BreadChat -3:12 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle @MortalGreenWhim @amateurbakers @ericfrenchbaker@Miquel_Saborit ratios still remain important overall #BreadChat -3:12 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @blogypan @risedough Thanks for coming to today's#BreadChat! Chat hour ended 10 min ago, but there are some bakers here chatting. Join in! -3:12 PM Oct 24th, 2012



risedough #breadchat hello from Uruguay! -3:09 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Hello @Miquel_Saborit Today's #BreadChat just ended, but there are still a few bakers continuing the chat... -3:09 PM Oct 24th, 2012



blogypan @AmateurBakers Hi everyone! I'm from Madrid #breadchat-3:08 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @Reddogbakery @luis_jimenez_m @OnBlank Thanks for listening in to today's #BreadChat -3:08 PM Oct 24th, 2012



Miquel_Saborit #breadchat hello from Catalonia! -3:08 PM Oct 24th, 2012



acousticcoffee @AmateurBakers thanks for having me and organising! night all #breadchat -3:05 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @DavidAlayeto Welcome to #BreadChat! Always with grams and baker's % -3:05 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Thank you for joining in today's #BreadChat,@cookingath0me @acousticcoffee @jbell54 -3:04 PM Oct 24th, 2012



DavidAlayeto #BreadChat Q2: about records/notes taken when developing a new formula, do you work with grams/cups or baker's percentage? -3:04 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle #BreadChat @AmateurBakers all good fun happy to make this time! -3:03 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat Thanks everyone...lots to think about! -3:03 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Bakers are welcome to stay on and continue the chat#BreadChat -3:02 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle #BreadChat thank you @EricFrenchBaker hydration temps most enlightening gives jazz to bread! -3:02 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers That's a wrap! Thanks to all of the amateur, professional, and semi-professional bread bakers who participated in today's #BreadChat -3:02 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @EastcourtManor @tiaingle @MortalGreenWhim Thank you for participating in today's #BreadChat -3:01 PM Oct 24th, 2012



MortalGreenWhim @AmateurBakers @ericfrenchbaker Stimulating as always. Thank you #Breadchat -3:00 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker Have all a good evening, day, night... #BreadChat -3:00 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @EastcourtManor It's not exactly that. It's more complex. It's due to the chemistry of the gluten and the fermentation.#BreadChat -2:59 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Thank you @EricFrenchBaker for co-hosting #BreadChat-2:59 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat @EricFrenchBaker It is good to talk about the bread singing -2:59 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker I'm sorry but I have to leave now. #BreadChat -2:58 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle #BreadChat in the winter I get better results warming the water in summer when 30C+ it's not necessary -2:58 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat Adjustments for weather ...when its cold the flour absorbs less water from air but is also less either up or down ;-) -2:58 PM Oct 24th, 2012



MortalGreenWhim @AmateurBakers @tiaingle @ericfrenchbaker that's the excitement. There is no master formula, always something new#Breadchat -2:57 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle @EricFrenchBaker aaah #BreadChat thanks that makes sense!-2:56 PM Oct 24th, 2012



MortalGreenWhim @EricFrenchBaker @tiaingle Bread poetry! #Breadchat-2:56 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle @EricFrenchBaker bien sur! #BreadChat bread is music! -2:55 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @tiaingle No, what we meant is that you adapt your water temperature to the circumstances. Then, you keep the consistency. #BreadChat -2:55 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @tiaingle @MortalGreenWhim @EricFrenchBaker Seeing many bread formulas, one becomes aware of ranges of hydrations, enrichments #BreadChat -2:54 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @tiaingle In France, we talk about the song of the bread at the unloading from the oven. ;-) #BreadChat -2:53 PM Oct 24th, 2012



cookingath0me Question. Is it better to have a slightly wetter dough to achieve better soft in the inside chewy in the outside texture?#BreadChat -2:53 PM Oct 24th, 2012



acousticcoffee @cookingath0me @EricFrenchBaker with a longer pre-ferment it actually improved #breadchat -2:52 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle #BreadChat so the warmer the weather a higher hydration is required? -2:52 PM Oct 24th, 2012



MortalGreenWhim @tiaingle @ericfrenchbaker % are consistent as dough volume required increases. Not compared diff formulas as each is specific #Breadchat -2:52 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers And if you've been listening in to #BreadChat -- or if you've just come online -- please say hello and tell us where you're from. -2:52 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers We have a few minutes left for #BreadChat. Let's open the floor to other questions. -2:51 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle #BreadChat have you ever listened to bread bake? It has music sound of its own! -2:51 PM Oct 24th, 2012



jbell54 @EastcourtManor it was based on the River Cottage recipe with substitution of the milk for soya milk and butter for goats butter.#breadchat -2:51 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @tiaingle @MortalGreenWhim You know already like it should sound like before to play the first note. #BreadChat -2:50 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @tiaingle @MortalGreenWhim That's the basis of a design from scratch. It's like when you play music. #BreadChat -2:49 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle @EricFrenchBaker meaning increase hydration when really hot?#BreadChat -2:49 PM Oct 24th, 2012



jbell54 #breadchat it seems to me that bread making is chemistry sprinkled with creativity. A real renaissance activity! -2:49 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat @jbell54 Please share! -2:48 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat @acousticcoffee 10% difference is quite a lot...but you do need to adapt for the weather -2:48 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @acousticcoffee Usually, a cooler dough can get less hydration that a warmer one. #BreadChat -2:47 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle @MortalGreenWhim @ericfrenchbaker #BreadChat my Q is can you see % parallels with different formulas you tried on your spreadsheets? -2:47 PM Oct 24th, 2012



jbell54 @EastcourtManor yes, I have a record but not on spreadsheet just the recipe.#breadchat -2:46 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @acousticcoffee Hydration and dough consistence are linked. Temperature influences the chemistry of the dough...#BreadChat -2:46 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @cookingath0me That's why I say that it's a whole. You can't really consider one without the other. #BreadChat -2:45 PM Oct 24th, 2012



acousticcoffee so i found my hydration changed by about 10% when it got cooler this month and achieved same results - is that balancing?#breadchat -2:45 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @cookingath0me So, "balancing" is setting up what you call the formula. This is also directly linked to the recipe (method).#BreadChat -2:44 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker We've seen the term "balancing" used in different ways. We wondered what meaning it has to you.#BreadChat -2:44 PM Oct 24th, 2012



cookingath0me @EricFrenchBaker @jbell54 @eastcourtmanorabsolutely! Especially when ur experimenting. #BreadChat -2:43 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle #BreadChat the weather affects everything too down here! One minute hot, then blasting hot! -2:43 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @tiaingle @AmateurBakers For me, what's important is do I get what I wanted or not ? #BreadChat -2:43 PM Oct 24th, 2012



cookingath0me #BreadChat Balancing. I understand it to be ratios of each ingredients to use to get the same results. -2:42 PM Oct 24th, 2012



MortalGreenWhim @tiaingle @ericfrenchbaker @amateurbakersspreadsheets work well for bakers% and can manage pre-ferments#Breadchat -2:42 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle #breadchat balancing a formula to me means balancing gluten levels, hydration & acidity, if used @AmateurBakers -2:41 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat @jbell54 I hope you wrote down what you did!!!!!!!!!!!! -2:41 PM Oct 24th, 2012



acousticcoffee RT @EastcourtManor#BreadChat Q3 I don't know what balancing the formula means...but always interested to learn! -2:41 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @jbell54 @EastcourtManor Luck is a cool ingredient ! ;-) #BreadChat -2:41 PM Oct 24th, 2012



cookingath0me Balancing. Now were talking chemistry #BreadChat -2:41 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat Q3 I don't know what balancing the formula means...but always interested to learn! -2:41 PM Oct 24th, 2012



cookingath0me @jbell54 I tend to do it nowadays. Bake without recipe. Sometimes it goes well sometimes I fail. But its so rewarding in the end#BreadChat -2:40 PM Oct 24th, 2012



jbell54 @EastcourtManor first time lucky then.#breadchat -2:39 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers What do you mean by "balancing" a formula ? #BreadChat -2:39 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers Actually, wholemeal is usually trickier than white flour... #BreadChat -2:37 PM Oct 24th, 2012



jbell54 @cookingath0me I used soya milk, goats butter and 4 eggs. We can't eat cows milk products.#breadchat. No recipe! Wow!! -2:37 PM Oct 24th, 2012



cookingath0me #BreadChat there is an android app for bakers?#amazingtechnology -2:37 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat @jbell54 I feel like brioche is almost its own special topic... its a very hard dough to get right -2:37 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Q3: What goes into "balancing" a formula? What does balancing a formula mean to you? #BreadChat @EricFrenchBaker -2:37 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Let's move on to question 3 #BreadChat -2:36 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @jbell54 Spelt has a gluten more delicate than wheat. That's the main reason. #BreadChat -2:36 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle @EricFrenchBaker @amateurbakers #BreadChat to what extent does spreadsheet replicate bakers % then? -2:36 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @jbell54 Bakery is very simple at the basis. When you're going further, it's very complicated. I've got a technical book of 450 p.#BreadChat -2:35 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat The android app is very simple - I'm sure these spreadsheets are more sophisticated! -2:35 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker Rules of thumb to predict how much tweaking a recipe can take? E.g. whole grains more tolerant than white flour? #BreadChat -2:35 PM Oct 24th, 2012



cookingath0me @jbell54 I made it last weekend w/o a recipe to follow. Turns out more eggs amd butter were needed. It was ok-ish though.#BreadChat -2:35 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers I designed all the template myself. It's a lot of work but it runs like I want. #BreadChat -2:34 PM Oct 24th, 2012



MortalGreenWhim @EricFrenchBaker I have similar homemade spreadsheet. Ordes come out as loaf qty and doughs required. Saves the mental maths #Breadchat -2:33 PM Oct 24th, 2012



jbell54 @EricFrenchBaker is that because spelt is less tolerant?#breadchat -2:33 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle #BreadChat understanding the gluten levels of flour will affect make up of recipe don't you think @EricFrenchBaker ? -2:33 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @EastcourtManor I'll have a look at this. For those who don't have an Android device, you can still get an emulator. #BreadChat-2:33 PM Oct 24th, 2012



jbell54 @EricFrenchBaker hmm, it's that etc that worries me!#breadchat-2:32 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker Did you make an Excel template for yourself (or does your bakery have access to professional baking software)? #BreadChat -2:32 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @jbell54 For example, my 100 % spelt sourdough recipe is not very much tolerant. My seeded sourdough is very tolerant.#BreadChat -2:31 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat android app link: -2:31 PM Oct 24th, 2012



MortalGreenWhim @AmateurBakers I trial a recipe until the flavour and look of the loaf are good. Then I do the spreadsheet and keep tweaking. #Breadchat -2:31 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @jbell54 Here, it's very technical. It depends on the flour basis, the richness of the dough, etc...#BreadChat -2:30 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @jbell54 @EricFrenchBaker A good way to find out is lots of trials and error. #BreadChat -2:30 PM Oct 24th, 2012



jbell54 @cookingath0me #breadchat made brioche today for first time. Pleased but not confident I could play around with it. -2:30 PM Oct 24th, 2012



jbell54 @EricFrenchBaker #breadchat yes that's what I find but I don't know what makes one recipe more tolerant than another. -2:28 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @EastcourtManor We'd still like to test out your android app, but don't yet have an android among us. #BreadChat -2:28 PM Oct 24th, 2012



cookingath0me I write up the measurements of each ingredients. However I only do so with enriched dough ie brioche. #BreadChat -2:28 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle #BreadChat just keep noted on my iPad then notes are at my fingertips! -2:27 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @MortalGreenWhim Me, I've got a complex spreadsheet template on which I enter my orders and gives mes all the recipes of the day. #BreadChat -2:27 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @MortalGreenWhim "once it works" :-) Before it works, what is your process like? Pencil and paper? Chalkboard by the bench?#BreadChat -2:27 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat Oh dear Sonya that is very geeky...I wrote an android app to help but probably not as flexible -2:26 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @jbell54 It depends.. Some recipes are very tolerant. Some others are not at all. #BreadChat -2:26 PM Oct 24th, 2012



MortalGreenWhim #Breadchat It all goes on a spreadsheet once the loaf works! Then have a standard sheet for each bread to make 2 to 20+#geek -2:25 PM Oct 24th, 2012



jbell54 #breadchat hi I'm from Worcestershire in England. Interesting point about how far you can change a recipe and still succeed. -2:24 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle #breadchat formula remains the same, ingredients change -2:23 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @Reddogbakery Welcome to #BreadChat! -2:23 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle #breadchat different ratios of flour types is what I record -2:22 PM Oct 24th, 2012



Reddogbakery #breadchat, hello -2:22 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @drmuerte @luis_jimenez_m Welcome to #BreadChat!#BreadChat -2:21 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers @EastcourtManor Personally, I think that the nomenclature "formula" vs. "recipe" is quite confusing.#BreadChat -2:21 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat @EricFrenchBaker ...then I mean same recipe different method ;-) -2:21 PM Oct 24th, 2012



luis_jimenez_m Hi everybody! Listening from Spain. Very interesting chat today. #BreadChat -2:21 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Q2: What records/notes do you write when experimenting to develop a new bread formula? What details are most important to you? #BreadChat -2:20 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Let's move on to question 2 #BreadChat@EricFrenchBaker -2:20 PM Oct 24th, 2012



drmuerte RT @AmateurBakers#BreadChat is on! If you're listening in, say hello and tell us where you're listening from -2:20 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers @EastcourtManor In France, we don't talk about fomrula and recipe. We talk about recipe and method.#BreadChat -2:18 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat I mean change the sequence of instructions. e.g. Try soaking the fruit...or make up the dough and add the dry ingredients... -2:18 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers For me, recipe and formula as you say, is a whole. They can't be dissociated if you want to get the right result. #BreadChat -2:18 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @tiaingle Welcome to #BreadChat. Thanks for getting up early to chat with us! -2:17 PM Oct 24th, 2012



tiaingle G'day #BreadChat from down under this is Tia -2:16 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers #BreadChat is on! If you're listening in, say hello and tell us where you're listening from -2:16 PM Oct 24th, 2012



cookingath0me Even a little bit of fat makes a whole lot of difference. Now it makes me wonder how truffle oil can change my usual bread.#BreadChat -2:16 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker Q1: After, you need some inspiration. #BreadChat -2:16 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat Q1 I agree with Eric - great success this weekend adding cobnuts and apple to my basic spelt sourdough recipe-2:16 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @EastcourtManor "changing the recipe rather than the formula" -- do you mean, swap out ingredients, while leaving ratios intact? #BreadChat -2:15 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker Q1: Then, you play with it. You can change the ingredients, the method, put some added ingredients... #BreadChat -2:14 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Often start w/my tastebuds, trying to recreate a taste memory, or something I've sampled. But this approach's often overwhelming #BreadChat -2:14 PM Oct 24th, 2012



cookingath0me #BreadChat interesting question. I tend to use the idea of usual 500g to 300ml and add any seeds or nuts that I have in handy.-2:14 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker Q1: More seriously, I'd say that it's best to start with a basic recipe with which you're very comfortable. #BreadChat -2:13 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat sometimes you find a brilliant formula and changing the recipe rather than the formula can yield amazing results-2:13 PM Oct 24th, 2012



MortalGreenWhim @EastcourtManor I try a number of other bakers' formulas and adapt until I get the loaf I like #Breadchat -2:12 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers Just for fun, I would say in the kitchen ! ;-) #BreadChat -2:11 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat Q1. I always start with a more experienced and wiser baker's recipe. -2:10 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Q1: When developing a new bread formula, where is a good place to begin? #BreadChat @EricFrenchBaker -2:08 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker Today we discuss techniques for developing one's own bread formulas. We'll begin with Question #1now. #BreadChat -2:07 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Welcome to our co-host, @EricFrenchBaker#BreadChat-2:06 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat @acousticcoffee Glad to see you here - used to be a regular customer and really must get back into the weekly coffee orders! -2:06 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EricFrenchBaker Good evening, afternoon, morning or night !#BreadChat -2:05 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @jbell54 @acousticcoffee @OnBlank Welcome to#BreadChat! -2:04 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @jbell54 We've some questions submitted in advance by bakers. We'll start with those in a few minutes once everyone says hello #BreadChat -2:03 PM Oct 24th, 2012



OnBlank @AmateurBakers Heyooooo Kristina in Utah #breadchat -2:02 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor #BreadChat Joining the discussion from Kent, England-2:02 PM Oct 24th, 2012



acousticcoffee hello from my kitchen #breadchat -2:02 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Today we'll be discussing techniques for developing one's own bread formulas. #BreadChat -2:02 PM Oct 24th, 2012



jbell54 #breadchat signing in but not sure what to do. -2:01 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @cookingath0me Welcome to #BreadChat! -2:01 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Bakers, when you come online, please say hello and tell us where you're from #BreadChat -2:01 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers @MortalGreenWhim @EastcourtManor Welcome to#BreadChat! -2:00 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers We're happy to welcome back @EricFrenchBaker as co-host. #BreadChat -2:00 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers Amateur & professional bakers alike, welcome to#BreadChat, now in its 9th month. -2:00 PM Oct 24th, 2012



cookingath0me #breadchat signing in. Just after watcHing #gbbo -2:00 PM Oct 24th, 2012



MortalGreenWhim @AmateurBakers eager for #Breadchat . Yippee! -1:58 PM Oct 24th, 2012



EastcourtManor RT @AmateurBakers#BreadChat in 5 -1:56 PM Oct 24th, 2012



AmateurBakers #BreadChat in 5 -1:55 PM Oct 24th, 2012

AnnaInMD's picture


hanseata's picture

Tweets are a bit too short to give a detailed comment. And then other people weigh in with something different. To find the nuggets (if there are any) you have to sift through a lot of back and forth stuff that's not very interesting.