The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

WW and Rye

highwaymanco's picture
highwaymanco

WW and Rye

I recently posted what i would consider a success (albeit short of goals) in my sourdough baking of white sourdough bread. That said, i am unsure of what my expectations should be for whole wheat and rye loaves. So, i have comparison pictures of 2 loaves i baked inside the same 12 hour period (in an attempt to keep the situation/climate the same).

My wife loves the white sourdough but really prefers WW or even more so Rye breads.

Here's my trouble.

Every attempt to create a WW SD boule similar to the White SD has failed (by the way, the rye attempts are very similar in look and structure to the ww after baking). The WW has far less oven spring, is very difficult to score (graininess) and takes a considerably longer amount of time during the second rise to show any signs of life. The big beautiful holes of the crumb are not happening either. The crust of the WW and Rye are much thicker and it doesn't have the same "chew". I will admit, my wife loves THE TASTE and TEXTURE (the crumb) of the WW (although she doesn't care for the "heavier" crust. I am looking for beautiful "HIGH RISE" loaves.

I am using very similar formulas and methods for all (exceptions would be I add about 2% more water to the WW and Rye in order to give them a similar "feel in the hands" during folding stages)

Question (after you view the pictures)

Are my expectations unrealistic ?

In yalls expert opinions, would more hydration help ?

Is that the nature of SD WW or SD Rye ?

 

I promise crumb photos after wife gets home (she likes uncut loaves for her tuna melts...grin)

 

White

WW

Side by Side

WW view

White view

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

yes

I'm having problems posting my reply and it freezes the spelling checker.

cranbo's picture
cranbo

Your WW looks good, you should take a pic of the crumb as well. Seems like they have pretty good spring. 

Txfarmer has done some incredible things with WW:

Hopefully some inspiration for what can be done with knowledge and experience!

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Flours behave in different ways.  When making comparisons, white wheat is generally used as the "standard."  So discussions often compare one type of flour to another, when not mentioned specifically, that is usually white wheat.

Whole wheat contains more of the grain including the bran.  This bran, when ot softened or soaked tends to cut the gluten strands that develop so nicely in white wheat flour dough.  Find a recipe that soaks the bran in the ww and you are one step closer to your goal.  As a general rule, the more "whole" the flour, the more water it can soak up.  Just 2% more water?  I think you will find ww soaking up a bit more than that.  Rye too.  Not sure if you mean 100% rye dough or a blend in-between, but rye hehaves very differently as a dough.  In small amounts it adds flavour.  As % increase, the dough gets stickier a paste like.  Rye lacks the gluten wheat contains.  Using one recipe and MO for every type of grain will only lead to disappointment.  A recipe can only be tweaked so far before the formula changes completely.  There is a reason there are so many recipes.  There are lots of different flours and added ingredients not to mention tastes vary from person to person.  some grains will speed up fermentation, other slow it down.  The coarseness of the flour will have some impact too.  

I suggest you look up the different grains, read about them and compare good recipes containing those grains.  Meanwhile, take some of the flours you already have at home and play with them.  Touch them and rub them between your fingers, get an idea of what you're dealing with.  Dig out all the little bowls and glasses you have along with spoons and swizzle sticks.  Weight out 20g of each flour and add 10g (for 50% hydration) water to them,  watch the flour slowly absorb into the flour, now stir to moisten all the flour and compare.  Compare a bread flour to AP and to WW and Rye and Corn starch and oat flour.  Whatever you've got handy, test it.  Wet them, wait, stir them and see how else they are different.  Go thru your senses (touch, sight, smell, ...) Add 2g more water upping to 60% hydration or just add to the thirsty flours.  Now how do they compare?  Add 2g more (70%) and just enjoy yourself .

In the end you could mix them all together, add some white wheat or water to balance out the dough hydration and make a pizza crust.  Add roughly 2%  of the total dough weight (easier than figuring the flour weight) instant yeast, a little salt to taste, a splash of olive oil and let the dough bulk rise.

Here in Austria many of the breads have traditional shapes and scoring.  This often comes from the various characteristics of the dough and the fact that most bread is sold in bakery open shelves behind a counter.  Comparisons are easily made.  If the dough is white wheat, it tends to have more elaborate shapes than say a whole wheat loaf that tends to have less memory when rising.  A loaf containing a decent amount of rye will look very different from a whole wheat or a spelt loaf or a mixed flour loaf.  The dough behaves differently, the textures are different and so the loaves tend to look very different.  They also rise differently.  So even if you try to make all your loaves look the same, if you change the flour, chances are good they will look different.  I think they should.

highwaymanco's picture
highwaymanco

thanks for the replies yall

cranbo,

i'll take a look at those links...thanks

mini,

thanks for the response...

It is just what i was looking for. I wish there were more responses like yours. I'm one of those that likes lots of opinions (although I can imagine they won't be that different than yours on this post). I really enjoy the "nuances" and "subtleties". Seems like I learn the most from those.

highwaymanco's picture
highwaymanco

If yall noticed the crumb on the bottom of the loaves is much darker. I baked another loaf last night and raised the grate one notch in the oven. That fixed it.

Again, thanks for the responses,

R. Michael

highwaymanco's picture
highwaymanco

Apologies for multiple posts,

That said, cranbo...

The second link you gave me was EXACTLY what i am looking for.

Thanks !!!

 

cranbo's picture
cranbo

Always happy to help! :)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

the open crumb winner is a all AP flour baguette.  Once you start adding whole grains  2 things happen.  Less open large holes and the more water it needs.  txfarmers Tartine WW isn't all WW and it is at 85% hydration and the holes aren't anywhere like her 75% hydration white flour baguettes.    That does' t mean her WW Tartine baked in a DO doesn't rise majestically and have an open crumb - just not like a white floured one one would .  Those gluten strand cutting bran flakes keep getting in the way :-)

Soaking the bran helps a Mini says.  Sifting out the bran, soaking it and then adding it back in at the last S&F also can help with an open crumb in whole grain breads.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Nuke or cook it with water to heat up and soften, add cooled back into the dough (may have to add a tablespoon more water if cooked too long)  will also do some interesting things to the dough.  Find more under water roux or tangzhong in the site search box.  :)

highwaymanco's picture
highwaymanco

i think my real point here...

This wonderful forum has become overwhelmingly filled with information. It has become increasingly difficult, as I used to do in the past, to keep up with techniques for adjusting or adding new ideas to my amateur baking. I almost feel stupid when asking these questions but between the knowledgeable folks here, their personal advise and linking, I get the help i need to move forward in my baking endeavors. In reality I guess I could read here everyday to keep up but that is impossible for me.

Thanks again so much for your responses and directions. Very very helpful !

 

R. Michael