The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Vollkornbrot from Hamelman's "Bread"

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Vollkornbrot from Hamelman's "Bread"

Hamelman's "Vollkornbrot" is a 100% rye bread with sunflower seeds. The flour Hamelman calls for is "rye meal," which I just happend to have in quantity due to my error in ordering "medium rye meal" when I had intended to order "medium rye flour" from nybakers.com. Well, as Kubler-Ross wrote, "There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us to learn from."

As it happens, I have intended to work on baking 100% rye breads for some time, my  past attempts having been less than wonderful. Clearly, my unconscious mind highjacked my nybakers.com order. So, after blessing my unconscious ... or something like that ... I proceded to takle this project.

Hamelman's formula for Vollkornbrot calls for 68.4% rye meal and 31.6% rye chops. I had abundant rye meal (see above), and I had a pound of cracked rye from Central Milling, which I used in lieu of rye chops.  60% of the rye meal is pre-fermented. The cracked rye is included in the form of a 100% hydration soaker. The overall hydration of the dough is 82.1%.

Other than substituting cracked rye for rye chops, I followed Hamelman's formula and procedures to the letter. The dough was drier than I expected, but still very sticky. It had no difficulty holding together. I shaped it on a wet board with wet hands and, after shaping a log, placed it in a pullman pan and smoothed it out with a spatula. The top was dusted with more rye meal, as instructed by Hamelman. I baked it with steam for 15 minutes at 470 dF then for another 60 minutes at 380 dF. I then dumped the loaf out of the pan and baked another 15 minutes with the loaf sitting on a baking stone. This was to firm up the crust, although it was very firm already when taken out of the pan.

After baking and cooling on a rack for several hours, I wrapped the loaf in baker's linen and let it rest for about 30 hours before slicing. The crust was very firm and chewy. The crumb was very dense, as you can see, moist but not gummy. The aroma and flavor were earthy and slightly sweet. I had some for breakfast with cream cheese and smoked salmon and enjoyed it. I think this bread would make great Danish-style open face sandwiches.

I have never had this type of bread before, except once long ago from an imported package. So, I really don't have a good model with which to compare my bread. From what I've read and pictures I've seen, I think I hit the target. I wish I knew how close to the bullseye I got. This bake was certainly superior to my few previous attempts at a 100% rye bread.

I'm hoping TFL members with more experience than I have of this type of bread will offer constructive criticism and suggestions.

David

Comments

pmccool's picture
pmccool

I think that you checked all the boxes on this bake.  Using cracked rye was a good call; I've used that before, too, and very much enjoyed the additional heft and "tooth" that it provides.  "Earthy and slightly sweet" is a good summation for the flavor of this kind of bread.

One of the things that I notice with this style of bread is how just a thin slice or two leaves me feeling very full.  While it is dense, yes, it seems to hit the satiety button a lot more firmly than its mass would suggest.

Good stuff and a good bake.

Paul

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Your comments are reassuring.

And I am noticing the the fullness effect. I had some for breakfast and more for lunch today. It's way past the time when I'm usually hungry for dinner, but I'm not. Maybe we have a new treatment for obesity. 

David

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

and the next thing is you start thinking like other retired people.  Your 100% rye looks very tasty.  Like you, I had mine with a schmear and some fruit for breakfast this morning too:-)  Mine was half YW and half Rye Sourdough though.  YW really opened up the crumb.  Very yummy and as good a breakfast bread as one could ask for.

Nice baking David!

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hmmm ... So, retirement makes one's mind turn to rye? Or are you referring to my ordering error? 

It looks like you had a nice Summer breakfast. 

David

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I were eating our home baked 100% rye for breakfast, with a schmear and thinking alike.  Sadly, I think more like my apprentice now a days and she is only 8 years old and that is about as old as men get if you listen to her  :-)

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

really great bake, David!! It could hardly come better than this one. The only minor complaint is in the unevenness of sunflower seeds distribution (they seem to be all at the sides), but it happens all the time, however you knead the dough:)

What a pity that rye chops are nowhere to be found in the world!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Well, the seed maldistribution doesn't seem to detract from the eatability.

David

FlourChild's picture
FlourChild

David, your loaf looks gorgeous to me, lovely crumb and sounds like it was delicious.  I'm headed to VT next week for a sourdough class, and this is one of the breads I hope to buy from the KAF bakery.  If I get a loaf I'll let you know how it compares :) 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Have a great time in Vermont. I'll look for your report on the class and the bread!

David

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

David, your bread looks just right.

What Hamelman doesn't mention - some bakers get seriously addicted to this kind of bread...

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I could see getting addicted to this bread. To my surprise, my wife, who generally does not like rye breads as much as I do, enjoyed this one.

David

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Absolutely Lovely Volkornbrot, David!! I really can't be better than this.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

kallisto's picture
kallisto (not verified)

i didn't taste your bread, but it looks like the vollkornbrot i always buy at my bakery :)

altsveyser's picture
altsveyser

I have made 4 loaves thus far from the following recipe (aged for 2-3 days each time) depending on how desperate I am to consume it).

http://www.applepiepatispate.com/bread/vollkornbrot/

Each one turned out 100% FANTASTIC. Moist, heavy, rich, delicious and authentic tasting. They say it can keep for 2 weeks in the fridge but that is not going to happen in this house; it's addictive!

I made 3 modifications.

1. I cannot source local rye chops (believe it or not, I live in ALBERTA!). So I use half whole rye berries and half steel cut oats in the soaker.

2. I add about 2 tbsp of molasses to the final dough.

3.  This dough is so wet and sticky I have forgone shaping into a log. I just spoon it out into a pullman pan and compact it down with a rubber spatula.

PS this site sucks so bad (designed by a hack). I don't have time to find out how to attach some pics of today's bread to this post, or I would have attached them. Trust me, a wonder to behold.

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Altwhatever.  Total unecessary comment about the site's creator.  C'mon, as a fellow Canadian, I would expect more class.

In my opinion, if you don't like the site, there's plenty out there to go to.  Or perhaps you can create a better one.

John

altsveyser's picture
altsveyser

I didn't mean for you to take it so personally. I assume you're the site designer. I js fnd it rather unintuitive and gave an opinion.

Sorry, no time or inclination to build websites. I am a database engineer and that keeps me more than busy.

BTW, try the recipe in the link; it's really good.

 

Oh ya, altsveyser = know it all .... :)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The recipe to which you linked is the same as the one used in this posting, Jeffrey Hamelman's from Bread. I assume you didn't have time to read it ... or perhaps either one.

P.S. You may not know it, but participation in this forum is not obligatory. Your low opinion of the site, the many demands on your time (unfortunately preventing you from learning how to use the site), and your general wonderfulness (although, I have to trust your word as to that), suggest we may not be worthy of your contributions. I am sure you have more important things to do.

altsveyser's picture
altsveyser

If you cared to read both recipes you will  note they are  not identical. There deosnt seem to be much difference in all the recipes I have read.

 

I was simply wanting to provide a venue for othres to try it. Jesus, your the 2nd milk toast to comment to me in this fashion. Don't get yor knickers in a knot over it. Sheesh....

 

PS I hardly ever come here and will probaby use it even less often if everyone is a touchy as you and the other guy that sent me a love note. 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Read carefully ...

This is a community. We share an interest in baking bread. This community has a tradition, exemplified by the owner - that "hack" to whom you refered - of mutual respect and, I dare say, affection.

Respect is earned through demonstration of competence, by asking honest questions, by offering help when other members are having problems and by expressing appreciation when others share.

When a new member or infrequent visitor waltzes in and posts a self-congratulatory message, unevidenced at that, and goes on to disrespect the site, it is offensive to most. 

Please understand this. You owe an apology for how you expressed your opinion. You have only compounded your offensiveness by name-calling. You have a right to your opinion. You have a right to make suggestions and identify specific problems you are having with the site. You don't have a right to deposit your excrement and expect others to admire it.

 

altsveyser's picture
altsveyser

 "When a new member or infrequent visitor waltzes in and posts a

self-congratulatory message"

I really don't give a shit what you think, but just to  get the story right, I was NOT congratuating myself. I was SHARING what I considered to be a recipe of interest. I do not need to feed my eago by venturing onto here and my intersts are not restricted to bread baking. In fact it is rathe rlow on my "things to do".

 

If  you feel that using the word "hack" is name calling I suggest you are rather thin skinned.

 

I'm done with you.

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi David.  I think the word we are all looking for is anyhoooooooo......

I have been wondering for some time now as I can not find rye chops locally, or at least I have not seen any around.  I have found nice organic rye berries.  Could one improvise in making a decent substitute for rye chops by simply coarsely pulsing them in a food processor after they have been scalded or soaked/softened?  Any drawbacks that you could think of in doing this?

I have held off on many recipe's such as this one simply because I can not find rye chops or rye meal (which I am assuming is a finer grind of rye chops?).

Thanks for your help in advance. 

John

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I couldn't find rye chops. I got what I used from nybakers.com and from Central Milling.

I believe I have seen rye chops on the product list of one of the smaller mills that sells online.

There was some discussion a while back about how to replicate rye chops starting with rye berries. It seems to me Karin or Mini Oven had some good ideas. A TFL search might turn up something. I'm sure the solution involved soaking or par-boiling the berries.

One solution is to try hand chopping. Or rather a non-solution. I've tried it, and the best I can say about it is that it was entertaining.

David

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Entertaining??  That sounds good...or bad...

I will experiment and post my results.  If worth posting!

John

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

David.  I gave the Vollkornbrot a go and I fear I have failed horribly.  If I was Luke and you were Yoda, very very dsappointed with me would be you.

John

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Believe in The Force, John.

David

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Too good :)

John

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

you are more than half way to Karin's bread challenge!  Don't you think you should give that a go after this fine piece of art?  That is what retirement is all about..... doing bread challenges, smoking meat, making beer and keeping the wife as happy as can be with........ desserts like Pie :-)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Well, dbm, not much bread baking is going to happen for the next couple of weeks. There is plenty in the freezer, and we're preoccupied with our grandson's bar mitzvah which is in 10 days. I just finished calligraphing the cover for the program. Lot's of little details to keep me busy.

Besides, I need to source some rye chops or cracked rye. Got any leads?

David

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

grandson coming of age!

To be honest i make my own rye chops because i can't find them near here..  My poor Krup's coffee grinder, before it grinds anything like hard rye berries, seems to crack them pretty well first.  If you go longer they become just like chopped rye, a little longer and they become rye meal.   A little longer and you have medium rye.  After the next whirring period you have to decide if you want to start extracting out the bran with a sieve to eventually get a nice white rye at 75% extraction.  I love the total control I get with that little grinder that you may not be available with other ways to get there. 

It is easy with this primitive $20 piece of equipment that I dont' bother looking for rye chops or cracked rye any more but I should... so I will :-)

  . 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hmmm ... I do actually have some organic rye berries. I could just put them through my KitchenAid grain mill at the coarsest setting. I bet they be something sort of like rye chops.

David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

How did you like it?

David

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

I just did my first vollkornbrot this morning, following Reinhart's recipe out of his whole grain book (while also looking at JH's version).  Following his recipe produced a pretty stiff/dry dough in my first go around, it came out a bit squat using a regular loaf pan, but we shall see when I cut it open in a day or so.  In the meantime...

There is precious little in the way of guidance on technique in working with the dough (let alone an explanation of the why's behind the recommendations, or informative pictures). Reinhart does recommend a series of kneading steps, and references gluten development and dough strength(?!).  He also recommends using the his regular wheat bread pan loaf shaping process for vollkornbrot (?! again).  Hammelman says even less, so I'm looking for insights on process - guidance on proofing (how much rise?), shaping, and the like - ideally with some explanations that will give me insight into why things work/don't work.

Thanks much...

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I'm afraid I have little experience with which to address your questions. The loaf in this posting was my first and last attempt at this bread. Based on this limited experience, I would say that "kneading" is not an appropriate term, and "moulding" would be more descriptive than "shaping" for that step.

I have Reinhart's WGB but have not looked at his version of volkornbrot. I'll do so, but I'd take Hamelman's advice over PR's for this type of bread.

David

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

I'd also really like to hear more about how hydration levels make a difference and how to gauge hydration adjustments in the dough

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

Wow...my bad - suggesting that JH's Bread provides precious little instruction on rye.  I had just gotten my copy of his book and just flipped to the Vollkornbrot formula to compare with PR's.  That formula  doesn't include much discussion of technique, but I overlooked the short but informative section on mixing rye, including 100% rye doughs, and other rye discussion the book contains.  Those discussions make me wonder that much more about PR's Vollkornbrot instructions.

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

Here is my 2nd Volk attempt, this time following JH's formula.  Not having access to examplars, I'm a bit at a loss as to what to think.  Using JH's directions (and using my new proofing box which worked nicely), it all seemed to come together just fine, although I ended up adding just a bit additional water to the final mix.

I did not get as much rise/spring as I was hoping for, and while I know this is supposed to be dense and most, but it again seems a bit far in that direction.  And while it is very flavorful, it had little tang at all (despite the sourdough portion fermenting nicely for 16hrs, and being quite puffy and fragrant when adding to the final mix).

The most likely things in my mind to work on is my timing of the bulk fermentation and final rise, and perhaps mixing (I went just as far as it needed for a thorough mix of ingredients and little beyond that - but I have little to use as a gauge on this.  JH suggests just making sure everything is well incorporated).

Tips???

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Analysis of your crumb photo may provide useful suggestions. It's kind of like reading tea leaves - an arcane practice known only to the cognoscenti, of which I am not one. 

I suggest asking Mini Oven and Andy (ananda on TFL). Please share their advice.

David

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You did so well!  An excellent rye loaf.  The thread did get a little gruff (no fault of your own) I think it scared me off.  Sorry.  I do tend to freeze half the bake after a few days standing.   

I love this type of bread for open faced sandwiches, or just thin sliced with butter wedged between.  If bikeprof doesn't get back with the advice, I'll post our comments.  

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The lack of standards for rye products certainly can be confusing.

Did you find CM flour locally, or are they shipping to you?

Regarding rye chops vs cracked rye: I have also been told they can be interchanged, but cracked rye needs more soaking. 

Regarding whole rye vs pumpernickel: Whole rye could be ground coarse, medium or fine. Pumpernickel is, by definition, whole rye flour that is coarsely ground. However, I have seen a lot of variation in just how coarse pumpernickel appears. And I have a bag of "medium rye meal" from NY Bakers that is much coarser than my pumpernickel flour from KAF.

Good luck and Happy Baking!

David