The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

UK centric: Bacheldre Watermill organic stoneground strong white flour for successful sourdough bread?

Tom Kershaw's picture
Tom Kershaw

UK centric: Bacheldre Watermill organic stoneground strong white flour for successful sourdough bread?

Hello,

I was briefly active on this forum a couple of years ago but have decided to return.

Question: attempting a sourdough loaf according to Hamelman's 'vermont' formula ( 750g wheat flour + 100g rye flour) with the Bacheldre organic strong white flour I have tended to end up with a cowpat type loaf or similar, however spliting the wheat flour between the stronground Bacheldre flour and Waitrose very strong white canadian flour (15g protein per 100g) has resulted in a highly successful loaf with excellent oven spring. My impression of the stoneground flour is of rather low protein content from how the dough handles (i.e. similar to a paste). 

Any ideas?

Tom Kershaw

Divine Crust's picture
Divine Crust

Hi,

I have just bought some of the Bacheldre flour myself. I chose the organic unbleached strong white and the organic brown. I bought them from Amazon and at first I could not see the difference between the unbleached white and the bakers white, but after speaking to the mill it turns out the former is coarser without additives and the latter finer, whiter with the addition of the legally required fortification, but he was not able to give me the extraction rate off the top of his head. SO, I ve used stoneground white flour before, but this was much darker/coarser. I think there must be beaches in Australia with sand finer than this flour! But, I love the bread. First I made one loaf from each and the brown flour made an extremely dark loaf, a bit too hard core for me and the white was just lovely. Now since I have 24.5 kg of brown flour to use up ;) I am experimenting with a proportion of brown in the white, like 10-25%.

My sourdough journey is taking me away from airy - French style, towards as much wholemeal content as I can get away in a closer crumbed German style Bauerbrot.

Taking recent advice from sauerdough sages on TFL, I now use 10-15% active starter, 75% hydration, a few stretches and folds with a period of bulk retarding to make a lean hearth bread 16 hours after initial hand mixing.

In conclusion, I love the Bacheldre flours, (the bread smells and tastes amazing) and have not had any problems.

My thoughts on your experience...the rate of fermentation in stoneground flour is faster than roller  milled and also increases with the wholemeal content, esspecially rye. So your usual recipe/timings may be ending up with an over fermented dough that has run out of steam hence the flatness. Also if you are looking for a specific amount of rise, maybe a doubling of the dough normally, by the time a stoneground flour has reached the same point, it may be at a more mature stage. This has been the single most important discovery for me, that if the dough is at its peak when you scale and shape, it is going to stuggle to make it to the oven. I would recommend you reduce your normal bulk proof time, reduce the mixing and/or stretching and folding and shape earlier. It can always catch up in the final proof. I like to see the dough rising at a convincing pace in the final proof (2-3 hours) and a good oven spring.

I am certain the strong white is a high protein wheat and that there is no need to rely on roller milled flour. I hope what I have said makes sense, and that you will succeed with the Bacheldre flour. I will be baking this afternoon, so I'll post a picture!

Annie

So here are the pictures! A good strong dough, and really light crumb.




lumos's picture
lumos

That's beautiful crumb, Annie. :)

Tom Kershaw's picture
Tom Kershaw

Hello Annie,

Thanks for your responce. I baked a reasonably successful yeasted loaf with the Bacheldre flour last night, but thinking about your comments re the fermentation times I suspect you are correct; the sourdough dough was surprisingly developed after bulk fermation compared to what might be expected from roller milled flour. How much time are you giving the dough in bulk fermentation? - your comment on percentage of active starter is probably relevant as well; I may well have been using too high a percentage of fermented leavain to start with, which would contribute to overshot fermentation.

Tom

Divine Crust's picture
Divine Crust

I use 10% young leaven (100% hydration), 75% hydration in main dough with 85% white 15% brown flour (Bacheldre), 1.6% salt. Mix cold, refrigerate for 8 hours (stretch and fold twice) remove to warm place for 7 hours, scale, shape, final proof 2 hours. I baked this loaf under a cloche and I think that contributed to the light airy crumb.

Do try it, I am over the moon with it!

Annie

Tom Kershaw's picture
Tom Kershaw

Thanks I'll try that. The crust and crumb look excellent. Is the white flour the Bacheldre organic white stoneground for this loaf?

 

Tom

Divine Crust's picture
Divine Crust

Yes, its the unbleached strong white as opposed to the bakers white. Which one have you got?

A

Tom Kershaw's picture
Tom Kershaw

The unbleached strong white with a similar colour to commercial high extraction brown bread flour.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bacheldre-Watermill-Organic-Stoneground-Unbleached/dp/B005FPWYRM/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1346106687&sr=8-6

 

Tom

Tom Kershaw's picture
Tom Kershaw

Hello Annie,

I tried your method yesterday with another "cowpat" being the result. Even after extensive shaping the dough would not hold its form and refused to rise in the oven, perhaps suggesting insufficient gluten development and / or overproofing. I'll try a more conventional technique this evening. 

 

Tom

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Tom,

Have you considered contacting the mill?   You need to talk to Matt.   If you want his e-mail address, please send me a pm.

I would be asking him for the flour specification.   You really need to know the protein content, the Hagberg Falling No., and in this case, a measure of the ash content, or a more precise analysis of the actual % extraction rate of the flour.   If the flour is as unrefined as you suggest this will greatly speed up fermenting times on account of greater mineral acting as yeast food.

If you obtain the flour spec and need some help interpreting it, then again please contact me by pm and I will be happy to help if I can.

I use Bacheldre flour all the time, but only the Dark Rye, unfortunately, so I really don't have any experience of how their other flour performs.

All good wishes

Andy

Tom Kershaw's picture
Tom Kershaw

Hello Andy,

Which white bread flours do you use? - I'll send a PM, actually I can see an aol e-mail address on the Bacheldre site.

 

Tom

Divine Crust's picture
Divine Crust

You need to know that stuff to make bread?!

Hmmm

I think I'm OK making bread without EVER knowing the Hagberg Falling No of any of the flours I use...does that make me an amateur or an artisan?

Anyway each to their own, but I do wonder how knowing these vital stats will help Tom read his dough better. In any event I'm quite sure its not a Bacheldre issue. At the end of the day the millers end product is flour, not bread, so there is only so much one can lay at their door.

Annie

 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Tom,

I use Marriage's Organic Strong White Flour and Gilchesters' Organic Ciabatta Flour.   The former is an excellent quality of bread wheat; the latter is a single strain of sativa grain which is grown and milled on a farm in Northumberland, around 30 miles away from where I live.   I buy Gilchesters' flour as a high-extraction "Farmhouse", and a much finer and lighter "Ciabatta"

Best wishes

Andy

lumos's picture
lumos

Hi Andy,

Can you explain what you meant by 'excellent quality of bread wheat' in Marriage's Organic flour you use?  Is it the quality of gluten?  I have used it once by recommendation by someone, but I was a bit disappointed for I found it a bit bland, both in flavour and aroma. 

robulous's picture
robulous

I've just about mastered making a basic white loaf and bought some Bachledre Mill unbleached organic flour just to broaden my range. I made a couple of bloomers which did look lovely, but I have to say the taste is a bit flat and bland. I don't find it particularly coarse and I knew that being unbleached it wouldn't come out white, but it just seems to lack depth of flavour even compared to the bog standard Allinsons white flour I've been using previously.

I've tried the sponge method to give it some flavour (I've tried leaving it both overnight and for four hours) but neither seemed to make much difference. Have to say I'm a little disappointed with this flour, I might use it for flavoured breads or mix with other things.

lumos's picture
lumos

Intresting thread.... as I've just found out recently you could buy bags of Bacheldre's stoneground white from Amazon and been wondering how it's like.  The protein level is quite high at 14.9%, so I expect it's strong enough flour to work quite easily but how about the colour, flavour and aroma?   If anyone else (or people who have already posted here) can share the experience of the flour, it'd be really appreciated. Thank you. :)

Been using Bacheldre's rye and spelt for quite a while and been happy with them.  I also bought their stoneground wholemeal flour (by mistake, actually, thinking it's spelt. Very similar label colour....) and going to use it for the first time later today.  I was surprised how finer it was compared to my regular stoneground wholemeal flour, Waitrose Organic stoneground.  Hope it works....

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

A while ago I started using Bacheldre flours. I love the wholegrain rye and the bakers white.

I just received a bag of soneground organic unbleached white. After I opened the bag I had to check the label again: It looks so much like high extraction flour. I am making my first loaf with it tonight, can't say much yet.

Juergen

lumos's picture
lumos

Just what I wanted, and immaculate timing, too!  Look forward to hear how you like the flour.  Thanks!  :)

....btw, where do you get your Bacheldre's Baker's White from?  My local Waitrose only stocks their Rye, Spelt, Wholemeal (wheat)  and malted flour. 

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi Lumos,

I am getting my Bacheldre flours via Amazon. Very easy.

Amazing what you can get there, I tried a bag of Bob's Red Mill AP flour, interesting (and expensive ...)

Back to the Bacheldre.

The Organic Stoneground Unbleached Strong White is definitely higher extraction, 85% I assume.

Here is a photo of a loaf made mostly with this flour:

I messed this one up a bit (I was trying to multitask) and ended up with the following recipe (based on DiMuzios DeCampagne)

Bacheldre Dark-White 285g, Doves WG Rye 15g, White Spelt 100g, Water 270g, Salt 8g, Instant Yeast 2g.

With T550 this loaf should be creamy-white, but it looks more like wholewheat. 

This Bacheldre flour is extremely thirsty, the dough felt on the stiff side and developped well.

Maybe it's time for me to lay my hands on Hamelman's Miche Pointe-A-Caillere again using this flour?

Juergen

lumos's picture
lumos

Thank you, Juergen. :)

OK...Amazon, again, then.....    I knew they sold all sorts of things, including many kinds of flour (yes, I was astonished by the price of Bob's Red Mill, too. Probably 98% of the price is for air-freight....:p), but wondering I could buy it somewhere else = from someone who pays tax.  They beat me again.....:p

Anyway..... The crumb has lovely warm colour.  But, as you said, maybe not the sort of colour standard white flour would make. Thank you so much for taking a trouble to posting the photo. 

Looks like if I want 'normal' white flour, I should uy Bakers White.   Pity they only comes in a 16kg bag..... 

 

 

 

A man on 'multi-tasking'.   You're not genetically programmed for that, you know? ::sigh:: .....  :p

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

yes, ... I am aware of that ... Dilbert is my hero ...

 

Lumos, 

I ordered this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bacheldre-Watermill-Organic-Stoneground-Strong/dp/B005INYPVY/ref=pd_sim_grocery_84

before. 

Great white flour.

Juergen

 

 

 

 

lumos's picture
lumos

Gosh, it's not even 16kg but 25kg! With the award under the belt, it seems really good flour' but it may take nearly a year for me to finish a bag...