The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Sinking after proofing

Stargazer2123's picture
Stargazer2123

Sinking after proofing

I am making a pain de champagne. I use a starter, I knead it for 10 min, let it rise for 2 hrs and then shape and proof for 1 1/2 hrs in a bread basket (before that I didn't use a bread basket and it just proofed wide). Now with the basket it has a nice shape, but as soon as I take it out it starts to sink. I've gotten good at throwing it in oven before it sinks too much. What am I doing wrong that it won't retain it's shape?

thank you for your help!

cranbo's picture
cranbo

To provide better advice, please share more about your recipe. 

I'm guessing combination of factors:

Gluten development: depending on flour makeup, maybe not enough development to keep it from spreading. A good gluten cloak and tight dough tension will help it keep its shape. You develop gluten through time, kneading, and hydration. Whole wheat will never develop the same level of gluten as white flour, but you can get close (see txfarmer's posts). 

Proofing: it's possible you are overproofing your dough. Without knowing your recipe and environmental factors (room temp, etc), it's impossible to say if 1.5 hours is too much or too little. Overproofed dough will collapse and spread when you transfer it. 

Wetness: higher hydration breads just tend to spread more, that's the way it goes. Breads made with a sourdough starter tend to be somewhat wet as they age, and tend to spread.

 

 

Stargazer2123's picture
Stargazer2123

Sorry this my first time on a forum. Here is the recipe

1tsp dry yeast

1 cup water

1/2  c. Rye flour 

2 1/3 c. Bread flour

1 1/2 tsp salt

1 c. Starter

I live in Texas and it's about 76-78 degrees in the house. I used HEB brand bread flour.

 

cranbo's picture
cranbo

Thx for sharing. So if I estimate correctly, 

292g bread flour + 65g rye flour
236g water

Gives about 66% hydration, which is not very wet, so that shouldn't be a problem. Also, not a huge quantity of rye, so it may be slightly more sticky but not by much.

What about starter? How do you normally feed it, and how often? 1c of starter could be totally runny like pancake batter or as thick as a finished dough. That will affect the dough wetness significantly. 

Also, how do you knead? By hand or with a stand mixer? How would you describe the dough texture when you finish kneading? Next time, take a picture of the dough when you knead it. 

One more thought: how big is your basket compared to the dough?

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

How does this sinking affect the final baked loaf ?  Is the final loaf sunken or is it ok ?  How is the bread overall?

Jeff

All at Sea's picture
All at Sea

... is on this being an over-proofing problem. I think Jeff is right to ask about what results you get once the dough is baked, and that will help diagnose the problem. But my feeling is that with temps of 76*-78* df, the yeast is going to romp away. Your flour quantity isn't huge, and so with a full cup of starter and a full teaspoon of yeast, the limited available flour starch is soon going to be gobbled up.

I have similar temperatures to you, and can fully proof 500 grams of flour in the same time as you, but only using a scant teaspoon of dried yeast or half a cup of starter. Not both. With your addition of a full cup of starter as well as the teaspoon of dried yeast, your ferment is going to be very much faster.

Before baking, do you test the final proof of the dough at all - say, by using the finger poke test?

All at Sea

wally's picture
wally

Dough turned out of a banneton or brotform will often deflate.  That isn't necessarily a problem.  It is a problem if it does not spring up in the oven.  You haven't told us what the finished loaves look like.  If they have good oven spring, then stop worrying about the momentary deflation.  However, if they remain flattened during the bake then there is a good chance that you have overproofed them.

Larry

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

Larry has offered a full explanation of why I asked about the finished loaves.  I hope that our comments have helped.

Jeff