The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

temperature for Rising

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Jerseygirl's picture
Jerseygirl

temperature for Rising

Help!!  My house is about 65 degrees lately.  I have been putting my dough in the oven with the light on to rise.  This works for the first rise, but then I think it is too warm for the next rise.  Any suggestions, I feel it is too warm in the oven and too cold to leave out on the counter.  Thanks for any input, I am a newbie to bread baking.

Jerseygirl in Kentucky

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

in my house.  We don't want it to cool or too warm.  There are different options since we are shooting for something like the 74 degree range for optimal lift off.  Different options include: 1) slightly opening the oven door to slightly reduce the temp  2) put dough in a bowl in a large plastic bag with a bowl of boiling water and seal the bag.  I have done this but find it awkard. 3)Unscrew the light bulb and leave the oven door shut. Good luck.  countryboy

Jerseygirl's picture
Jerseygirl

I opened the oven last night but was afraid the damage was already done, was too warm in there.  I am going to try it again today with light on for 30 min and then open oven for the rest of the risings.  Also the bag sounds like a good idea!  I read that on a couple of posts this morning.  Bread looks funny, didn't rise enough and still tasted good, lol.  Need a beautiful loaf for a Derby Party tomorrow.  Thanks, C-boy!

Jerseygirl in Kentucky

browndog's picture
browndog

This may be a 'duh' moment on my part, but I'm wondering why you think the temp's the issue for rise 2, also what kind of bread--lean or enriched? My house won't be cozy in bread terms til June, so if I'm proofing lean doughs I do try to keep them a little warmer than room temp by popping them in an unheated oven, as you are doing. My 'enhanced' doughs don't seem nearly as particular and seem to chug along fine even on the counter of my cool kitchen, but they might go in the oven too if I have any kind of timeline. However it seems to me that temperatures of 65 degrees shouldn't particularly hamper quality or outcome--just slow things down a bit, considering that a determined dough can blossom just fine in the fridge. Is your experience different? And I'm surprised your oven light contributes so much heat that it actually over-stimulates the dough.

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Ok Jerseygirl, just a note if you try the plastic bag route, please do not do as I did.  I put the bowl with dough in the big clear plastic bag and followed that with a couple of bowls of boiling water. The thought being that more was better....  Well with bowls of hot water you get a very large amount of condensation which makes it all very unfun, so, please do steer away from that option.  I am allowed to say this since I am a novice and make All the mistakes on this forum that everyone can learn from.  Actually it is novices like me that help make the real pros here look good. 

countryboy

Jerseygirl's picture
Jerseygirl

some changes from yesterday.  I am still using Floyd's recipe from the lessons he posted.  Today I used instant yeast, proofed yeast yesterday.  Dough came out much better and feels great.  Oven temp with light on is exactly 80 degrees and today I covered it with saran wrap, yesterday I used a tea towel.  Plan to open the door for second rise today, didn't yesterday.  I thought the temp was important, but didn't know it could be cooler.  Had to go back and reread Floyd's advice on that, lol.  Yesterdays dough seemed drier and could have used more water.  So today seems to be going just fine.  After 2nd rise, do I have to be gentle with the shaping, does that make a difference?  Sorry for the amateur questions, but I just don't know.  Will keep you posted with my progress, as I have 30 mins left on first rise.  Thanks for the input.

My bagels from Floyd's recipe tasted great, looked like hell.  A rising issue I am sure.  Will get this together the more I do it, I hope. 

Jerseygirl in KY

Jerseygirl's picture
Jerseygirl

Looked great!  Checked the dough temp this time, was 80 degrees.  Now turned off oven light and closed the door.  Hope this works.  Put a bag over it like Country boy suggested.  This could be the GOOD ONE!!  Well have some time to go...

Jerseygirl in KY

Jerseygirl's picture
Jerseygirl

I have just reread your post and thought warmer temps were good for the rising.  So if I leave it on the counter at the current 65 degree temp, I will just have to add more rising time to the dough?  I do believe the dough was over stimulated, as you stated.  Breads would not rise for the final and just kinda gets 3" high.  Tasted great, looked bad.  I could be wrong.  Just that sometimes it comes out nice, and other times less desireable looking.  Self teaching here, with the help of you all and Floyd.  So will let you know how the next rise comes out.  I wonder if it is too warm and rising too much the first time. geez..... second guessing all the time.  Thanks for the help.

Jerseygirl in KY

browndog's picture
browndog

>if I leave it on the counter at the current 65 degree temp, I will just have to add more rising time to the dough? -Yes, that's the simplest route, technically you could add a bit more yeast and not add rising time, but who wants to get technical? If you're not in a hurry, a little while longer in the bowl won't hurt and could even help taste and texture.. What kind of bread are you making?

> After 2nd rise, do I have to be gentle with the shaping, does that make a difference? -WELL, yes, no, and maybe. Again I would say it largely depends on what type of bread you're making, and I'm willing to bet you're not making Ciabatta...If a holey structure is your goal then gentle handling will reduce degassing of the dough and ultimately give you plenty of places for your jelly to drip through. If you are aiming for a more even crumb for a sandwich-type bread or if you are making any bread that's not expected to have craters in it then don't fret about a tender touch. Assuming you don't have anger issues, I doubt you could harm the dough with 'normal' handling, in fact in shaping you want to 'wake up' the gluten enough to get good surface tension and so a nicely shaped loaf, either in a pan or free form. It is possible to 'tear' the surface of the dough if it already has a lot of surface tension but honestly I don't think that's a likely 'beginner' problem. If it happens it's not a crisis anyway, it might affect the look of your bread, and again it might not, but it won't harm the taste. Think about that when you're more familiar with the feel of 'good' dough and how to get it.

Now, warmer temps are 'good' for rising in that the yeasties certainly prefer them, but it's not at all a crisis to go cooler. It can get too warm and I'd call that a bigger problem because you end up sacrificing taste and texture for no more return than a quick rise. It seems curious to me that 80 degrees would burn out your yeast so thoroughly, though, which is what sounds like happened with your 3" loaves, especially if you got a good rise the first time. I'm wondering if the dough way over-fermented the first time--because I was also thinking if your oven is good for the first rise it ought to be fine for the second, it's the same dough with the same requirements after all. What was the dough like at the end of the first rise, very puffy and gassy or starting to collapse? (Somebody may call me out on this, can't say for sure, but look around, you've got folks throwing everything in a bowl, making the sign of the cross over it, walking away and coming back 12 hours later to be greeted by fabulous bread.This can be as precise or as impromptu as suits you, to a degree.) --If you really are having a consistent problem with your dough rising too fast, think a little less yeast and cooler temps, even in the liquid you use to mix the dough. But I bet this will work itself out pretty quick and you'll forget it was ever a puzzlement when your bread comes out looking great. AND if you read Floyd's mission statement you will find that this site exists for the benefit of people with questions--we all have them, as Countryboy says, we all learn from each other around here.

bluesbread's picture
bluesbread

It's not just OK to let bread rise at cooler temperatures, it is preferable. It will create much better bread. Slow development of flavor is what you want. Similar to the idea of using only a little yeast. 65-degree room should be fine. But here's a tip to help it along just a bit -- wrap a blanket or towels around the bowl! It looks adorable, keeping your dough nice and cozy. And it really works. The yeast generates heat as it feeds and multiplies, and the blanket keeps that heat in. Enjoy!

BROTKUNST's picture
BROTKUNST

In our house we have closets that are not incredibly large and are perfect for bread fermentation when you hook up a heater with a digital temperature control. Usually the closets inside the house don't heat up like the rest, they are actually on the cooler side. So the heater would keep the temps at 75F with minimal effort (energy).

I have also a homebuild wooden proof box ... the temperature is controlled with a small recessed ceiling light that is connected to a digital dimmer. But the first option is way easier and more comfortable.

BROTKUNST

PS. For Rising I am using clear Campro Rising buckets. I installed stainless pressure relieve valves that keep the pressure leveled without drying the dough. (these relieve valves are an original design though and I haven't seen something like that commercially available. I use them also on airtight snap-on containers for my sourdough starters)

Jerseygirl's picture
Jerseygirl

Well, let me tell you...  I ended up with a beautiful loaf.  Every rise was textbook.  Sooo,  this is how it is supposed to turn out!   I am going to try the room temp rising next time, thanks to you all, and see what the difference it makes in flavor.  I think the instant yeast worked really well, was amazing. 

  I had 2 little old ladies visiting my neighbor across the street.  They were out front on the porch, I figured they had made bread at one time or another.  So I took them samples of day 1 loaf,(skinny, dense, funny looking) and day 2 loaf ( light, perfect looking)  and the crowd was split on their preference.  One liked the dense, day 1 loaf, more flavor she said and the other liked the perfect loaf.  So it just goes to show you, as long as it doesn't taste nasty, it is edible.   I am learning more and more about bread baking and want to tackle a Ciabatta and sourdough real soon, but then I will have questions about the poolis.  Going to make a couple of more loaves and perfect my bagels before attempting that.  

Oh, and I have ordered my first bread cookbook BBA.  Beware, more questions coming down the pike!!!

Thanks, Jerseygirl