The Fresh Loaf

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Spiking dough - whats the point?

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Breadhead's picture
Breadhead

Spiking dough - whats the point?

What is the point of using both a wild yeast starter AND a commercial yeast in the same dough? If the commercial yeast is the primary means of fermenting and raising the bread, what is the benefit of the wild yeast starter addition? The same benefit as using any other pre-ferment? Any benefits specific to the wild yeast culture? 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

some doughs get so sour from the fermenting, they just can't stimulate their own wild yeasts into kicking out more gas for a final rise.  That works only if the dough has not gone beyond its ability to trap gas.

Flavour, wild yeast ferment with a larger variety of yeasts and contribute more flavour than commercial yeast.

And timing.  If one has to get risen loaves into the oven at 5am and it's a cold day and the water heater broke down, spiking the dough will get it risen and baked before the customers come into to buy the bread. 

Breadhead's picture
Breadhead

Don't the wild yeasts tolerate a higher level of acidity than commercial yeasts do? If the dough has gotten too sour for wild yeast then it will certainly be so for commercial yeast. Unless you are reffering to the wild yeast culture BEFORE it is added to the final dough, where the wild yeasts have been killed off, but the acidity will be diluted when added to the final dough, at which point the commercials yeasts are added and can tolerate the weakened acidity level.

proth5's picture
proth5

- Taste.  Wild yeast with commercial produces a unique taste - which many people really like.  I use a poolish and a levain for just that purpose in some of my breads.

That last kick of oven spring is a nice one, too...

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Pat,

When you do this how do you decide what percent of pre-fermented flour to use with the wy and what percent to use with the CY? 

I currently use 13-15% pre-fermented flour in the form of a wy starter for most of my recipes.  When I mix the final dough I sometimes add .08% CY depending on the ingredients in the dough.  Final dough is then bulk fermented for about 10 -12 hours overnight in the refrig.  I am curious if I were to mix a poolish at the same time as the final leaven build - the amount of flour I would add without running the risk of over fermenting the dough which is risky using freshly ground whole grains followed by a long bulk fermenting time....  Any ideas?  

Janet

proth5's picture
proth5

a total of about 15% pre fermented flour.  Then I "guess" at the amount of that I want to preferment with wild yeast and with commercial yeast.  I'm currently at about 50% for each.

So - I'm mixing two pre ferments - at the same time - letting them ripen and then mixing the final dough. (7.5% of the total flour pre fermented in each)

I bake the bread - evaluate - and then vary until I get the bread that want - which hasn't happened, yet.  No matter what I do, I'm never happy with my bread - although other people really like it.

I would stay to lower percents with fresh ground flour - or you will get some very fast fermenting...

Hope this helps.

Pat

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Pat,

Like you I am always experimenting....the dangling carrot in front of my face.  Drives the kids mad when I change things so I take notes so I can recall which permutation they really liked except now, since they are getting used to my method of madness baking, they are actually enjoying the changes.

 Another glitch is that since my 'controlled' temps. aren't very controlled due to changes in our weather....all effect the taste of the final loaf so my breads are always changing - I now realize they do have 'minds' of their own since the yeasties and beasties are living things.  I make changes - they make changes.  Like you, all that eat the breads I make do like them and when you think about it, who wouldn't!  Freshly baked bread tops anything you can buy in a store.  So mostly I have fun in experimenting in my labratory kitchen to see what happens when I try different things that people recommend.

And now I can have fun trying out your idea which I gave some thought to last night as I was walking the dog.  I am thinking that using a poolish will work when not using an overnight fermenting time but rather when I mix a leaven and a poolish in the PM only and then the final dough in the AM and then let it do a bulk fermentation at room temp. and proof all within 6 -8 hours otherwise I will more than likely get overproofed or way to sour bread.  I tried using a soaker with a loaf last year that had ripened all day with my starter and then left in the final dough overnight and the resulting loaf was too sour and the dough had lost strength.  Usually when I bulk ferment overnight the dough gains strength.  Your % gives a good starting point from which to base my 'study' :-).

MC, over on her Farine site, has a loaf titled 85 x 3 and it uses 3 pre-ferments - a wy leaven, a poolish and a biga so there seems to be no end to the ways we can fine tune our breads....

Thanks for the pointers!

Take Care,

Janet

Toad.de.b's picture
Toad.de.b

Hi Janet,

FWIW, Chad Robertson's Tartine baguette formula calls for fermenting 14% of the flour in 3-4h CY poolish and another 14% of the flour in a WY levain (if my quick math is right), with no additional CY added to the final dough.  Worth a try!

Tom

 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Tom,

Thanks for the tip.  I have to modify recipes due to using only freshly ground whole grains.  They act very differently and I have yet to get Chad's recipe to work out with my flour no matter how I try :-(  so I gave up and stick to others that work :-)  Causes less kitchen induced stress!  

But that sounds like a fomula I have used that I got off of Farine that used a poolish, a biga and a leaven.  That one did work with my grains. 

Thanks again for the tip :-)

Janet

Toad.de.b's picture
Toad.de.b

Interesting coincidence that you ask this, Breadhead.  I've just been wondering lately why this isn't done more often (besides in rye breads where, from Hamelman at least, it's pretty standard procedure).  I'm making some yeasted preferment breads from Hamelman these days (back to basics) and can't help wondering how they would taste if the preferments were made from my SD starter, with instant yeast still added to the final dough.  I also wonder about this because the best tasting bread I've ever made, last April, had instant yeast added to the final dough because my final levain build looked weak at mixing time.  Incredible flavor -- addictive like your favorite junk snack.  [maybe proth5's "unique taste" (above) -- worth exploring!] Of course, my notes are not 100%  convincing that the added yeast was responsible, but there's nothing else obvious.

So I've got a plan filed away to try substituting my starter for  yeast preferments in recipes like Hamelman's (Ch 4), and still add yeast to the final doughs.  Couldn't help but get more flavor that way, no?

Tom

 

Librarian's picture
Librarian

I think sourdough, gives bread more structure and better taste, I now spike all my yeast recipes with sourdough :) the best result imo is fermenting them seperate and then add them with the final flour water for the last fermentation period. To balance my lack of time lately I ferment the sourdough part  on room temp and the yeast one ( part of the time/full time)  in the fridge. I use it mostly on pizza and ciabatta, since you want the rise to be responsive and yeast adds to that, other recipes I substited yeast with sourdough completly  because of the taste.

autopi's picture
autopi

my own experience -- not rigorously tested -- has been that spiking a SD loaf with a tiny bit of commerical yeast helps promote a somewhat more open crumb than I get with the SD on its own. probably a baker with more skill than I could achieve the same result w/o the commercial yeast.

PaddyL's picture
PaddyL

The sourdough has great health benefits, but I usually add some commercial yeast to it to give a little extra rise.

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi,

In "Merkblatt Nr. 41" of the "Arbeitsgemeninschaft Getreideforschung e.V. Detmold" which is all about the Detmolder single step process it is mentioned that the acetic acid is mainly formed at the beginning of the fermentation process. To get a milder bread they suggest to add 0.5% yeast to the sourdough. The yeast use up more food during the early stages of fermentation and less acetic acid is produced.

This document (in German) is available on Ketex' blog. Google for "Ketex Sauerteigführung"

I cited another document, stating that yeasted preferments with a long fermentation time have considerable bacterial activity,  in this comment:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/28855/spelt-beach#comment-218932

There is a huge number of permutations to explore!