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dimpled bread top and slow second rise

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loafloafer's picture
loafloafer

dimpled bread top and slow second rise

New to the forum. Been baking 100% bread for over 7 years from flour I grind with a  whisper mill. Use Hard white (Golden 86) and Hard red kernels. Finally came up with a recipe for 100% whole wheat bread that my children will eat since the crust and crumb is of a soft texture. Last time I baked I weighed my flour and recorded amounts. Recently my loaves come out from the convection oven smooth but then dimple upon cooling. Read that this occurs from over proofing. Can anyone confirm this diagnosis? How do I know when the first rise (proofing) and second rise is complete? Secondly, my second rise seems to take long to double and wonder if I should not work it so much to form the loaf. One time I barely touched the dough before putting it in the bread pans and seemed to have a greater rise but the loaf had a big hole in it! Read that the dough needs to be worked before forming loaves, but again I have found this to slow the second rise process and ends up with low rise loaves. Any suggestions? I use a yeast starter using water at 115 degrees. Additional liquids go in at 125 degrees with additional flour . Proof in closed door oven with it set on "proof".

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

box.  just type in questions.   Welcome to TFL!

I think you know when your rises are done, but with time (and a lot of us do it) we tend to not check on our dough so often and this leads to the bread over-proofing, so yes, the loaves are a little faster than you are.  :)  Set a timer if you need to.  I'm not sure where on the globe you are baking but in the northern hemisphere, the fermenting times speed up with summer's warmth.  I take it your temps are in °F?  I do think that with all that warmth, your fermenting must be very speedy indeed!  This time of the year, I don't have to warm up anything, in fact I find myself using cold water to slow down fermentation.  (also something to try if you like the dough timing schedule you have.)

It does sound like you need to shorten your first rise and that will speed up the second rise.  If you have a straight sided container for dough rising, it is easier to mark the level of the dough and when it is doubled.  Bowls can be hard to judge because of their round shape, soon double is triple and that can have consequences.  So, what you need to do is shorten the first rise to just double.   Then degas the dough (to avoid large air pockets) and shape and do what you do best and let the dough go through a final rise but don't let it quite double.   Leave a little rise for the oven and you can say good-bye to "after the bake dimples" from tired gluten structure.  

Now for the questions everyone wants to ask you:  

What is 100% bread?   and  

Are you using fresh, instant or active dry yeast?  :)

Mini

loafloafer's picture
loafloafer

Thanks, Mini for your suggestions to aid in my attempt at a more consistantly perfect loaf!

Hundred percent bread, hmmmm, understand your curiosity! That should have read, "100% whole wheat bread". Welcome to my late afternoon world :).

Yeast that I use is "saf-instant". Should I use something different?

Loafloafer

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

how interesting...  

The Q about yeast was curiosity to the "yeast starter at 115°F,"   Poolish?   (half water & flour with a pinch of yeast  allowed to ferment between 6 and 12 hrs)  OR something fermenting for less time?   If the above suggestions are not working, then a recipe with details would be helpful for troubleshooting.  

Again, welcome to The Fresh Loaf!

Mini  :)

loafloafer's picture
loafloafer

Hi, Mini, Forgive me but I don't understand the term, "Poolish". My starter consists of 6 3/4 tsp. yeast, 1 1/8 Cup water at 115 degrees F, 6 1/8 oz. Freshly ground Hard White Wheat. a.k.a. Golden 86 Flour. This sits overnight prior to use. I plan to make bread again soon watching my first proof volumn and viewed some bread shaping techniques. I love this site! Gleamed much useful information!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 A lot of yeast.  Yeast cannibalism for flavour.  Interesting idea.  When the yeast go thru the flour in a few hours, they start eating each other.  cool!   It reduces their numbers and yet gives you lots of yeast waste.  How does the yeast starter smell after standing overnight?   Would like to know how the rising comes out, keep track of room temp, dough temp and timing in your notes (may be a quiz following) as I can't remember anyone posting with such high amounts of yeast before.  Don't change the recipe at all, just watch the rises so they don't over-proof.  :)  

A Poolish is a mixture of flour and water and a pinch of yeast.  I tend to go 200g water (7 oz) and 200g flour and 1/8 teaspoon (in winter, more) and let it stand overnight making bread in the morning.  I just plug the amounts into whatever recipe I'm using at the time Subtracting 200g from water and flour often skipping the yeast  Mostly used to improve flour taste.   If the poolish is overripe, extreme sticky and stringy and liquids tend to separate out of the dough, it's fermented too far.   For use should be bubbly and well blended and smell very yeasty.  

I mentioned Poolish as this is what I'm using for comparisons at the moment.   One of the problems with a poolish method of pre-fermenting is that when it over-ferments lot of enzymes are produced that eat away at the gluten.   Not sure if this is a problem with your dough or not but I am intrigued by the possibility of yeasting out an enzyme problem, possibly with the use of alcohol by-product from the yeast.  Someone who knows more about the chemistry will surely chime in soon.     

Mini

All at Sea's picture
All at Sea

... is excellent if you want a good reliable dried yeast. I use it all the time as it's the best the islands here have to offer. Has excellent shelf-life, particularly if you keep it in an airtight bag or tin (I put tin in ziplock bag for good measure) in the fridge.

How much yeast do you use? Due to high ambient temperatures here, and to avoid overproofing, I regularly use only tiny amounts of SAF. As little as 1/8th teaspoon will raise me a batch of dough of, say, 700g flour, 525g water, 1.5 teaspoon salt very successfully - I regularly retard the dough too.

All at Sea

loafloafer's picture
loafloafer

I use 6 3/4 tsp. yeast. My recipe yeilds three loaves. What does "retard the dough" mean?

loafloafer

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Retarding means cooling the dough down to a low enough temperature to slow down yeast metabolism (or digestive system.)   Often done in a refrigerator or a cold room.  (more info in the FAQ's, handbook, and site search box)

All at Sea's picture
All at Sea

... Sorry for asking yeast quantity question - didn't spot this had already been covered in conversation with Mini.

Yes, 6 3/4 teaspoons of instant yeast is an extraordinary amount for only 3 loaves. Where did you found this recipe? Also, what ambient temperatures are you typically baking in?

All at Sea

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the answer was posted above the Question,  so it looks a little funny,  check the posting times.  Glad you asked!

Some might now say 6 3/4 teaspoons is not a lot for 3 loaves but in an overnight pre-ferment for 6.125 oz (175g) flour it is a lot.   :)  3.5g  would be 2%     About  3/4  teaspoon.  (the recipe is 8 times that amount.)  

All at Sea's picture
All at Sea

... am used to responses on fora following in strict chronological order, so overlooked need to watch times as guidance for thread sequence.

All at Sea

loafloafer's picture
loafloafer

I found the recipe on the internet when I searched for a softer whole wheat bread recipe. The recipe includes gluten, instant potato flakes and some milk that was new to me but makes for a delightful texture for my family. Baking in a home with air temps at 76-78 degrees.

All at Sea's picture
All at Sea

... that recipe had a typo? Can you find the link back to it, or do you have a copy/paste version of it? I saw one recipe recently, only for a modest lump of dough, that was calling for 2 tablespoons of dried yeast. The Tbs, I suspect, should have read tsp.

The warmth of your local climate (76-78 df) is beloved by the yeasty beasties, they will be in yeast heaven, so any ferment is going to be rapid unless you dial back on that very high quantity of SAF. That and/or use a refrigerator to slow the action down. Overproofing is going to be a problem very quickly.

To give you an idea: temps here are 78-84 df - just a little higher than yours. But even baking at the lower range (78 df), and if I don't retard, then just 1 teaspoon of SAF will give me fully risen dough - enough for two large loaves - and all in less than 2 and a half hours from mixing to baking. That doesn't allow much time for flavour or lacy crumb structure to develop, and with things happening so fast, it's a lot easier to overproof. That's why for lean doughs I rarely use more than 1/8 teaspoon.

But if this high yeast pre-ferment/starter recipe you've found is a clever ploy to enrich flavour/texture etc, then, it would be good to understand the reasoning - and it is fascinating stuff!

That you and your family love the texture of this bread says it's worth persevering to solve the riddle.

All at Sea