The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Mixing bagels in new mixer with thanks to all who helped me decide (read on!)

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

Mixing bagels in new mixer with thanks to all who helped me decide (read on!)

To all of you who helped me decide on a new mixer, thank you!  I did purchase the Bosch Universal from PHG, and I feel it was a good decision for my purposes (large amounts of bread/bagel dough).  I added the stainless bowl, a personal preference.  I "broke it in" by mixing a double batch of the ITJB bagel dough, that is for 24 bagels, and the Bosch came through with flying colors.  To be fair, I did increase the hydration to 55% from the 52% in the original recipe (which I used when I was testing the DLX, to be honest and fair).  I used 80% All Trumps, 20% Gold Medal bread flour, with a couple tsp. of VWG.  After shaping, I bagged them with white plastic garbage bags (blowing air into them so they don't stick to the dough) over the baking sheets, which have no sides and are used as peels, then put them in the fridge for an overnight fermentation.  Now for the camera shots (all but the crumb shot--sorry, but I was too busy chewing):

So you can see the new "big mixer" sitting there proudly, next to "little mixer" K/A Pro 6 (still going strong and doing much better with the spiral hook!)  Next is a shot of the prep, in order, R to L:  baking sheet lined with reused parchment, sprinkled with semolina (or rice) flour, boiling bath with barley malt syrup in the filtered water, 2 TBSP to about 3-4 quarts(?), then the ice water bath, which isn't difficult and cools them down quickly; replenished with ice as needed.  I was able to boil and chill 6 bagels at a time (handy when baking 24).  I placed a smooth cotton kitchen towel on a small cooling rack to hold the wet bagels.  Seeds are placed on salad size plates.  Baked on a stone preheated to 460, per ITJB recipe.  Although the pictures are not all in sequence, you can see the shaped bagels on the parchment lined baking sheet (new parchment on that one) and finally the finished bagels.  I usually mix 'em up, some plain, some with sesame, some with poppy and some with my own seed mix (B & W sesame, poppy, fennel, sunflower and flax, plus a little sea salt).  New trick I learned to keep the seeds from falling off:  brushing the tops of the unbaked, just boiled and cooled bagels with an egg-white/1 tsp water wash.  Also, I have learned there's no problem reusing parchment, even several times.   I'm gearing up to baking about 3 dozen bagels for a birthday brunch (mine) later this month!  Next will be the bialys . . .   Once again, thank you, TFL friends!

Joy

shastaflour's picture
shastaflour

Joy, your bagels are beautiful! In fact, just looking at them makes me hungry. So glad the Bosch is working out well. Your birthday brunch attendees are in for a treat.

An early "Happy Birthday" to you as well! :)

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Glad you like the BUP.  I bought mine a year or so ago, mostly for bagels.  

Your bagels look excellent.

Glenn

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Joy,

Really good looking product!

You might want to look into a high recovery pot for boiling your bagels to cut your process time.  The one I have from Eneron that recovers in half the time a flat bottom pot of the same size does.  I got mine on-line through a place in Indiana.  Not cheap but I think worth it. Pasta pot now boils in 5 min vs 10 (~6 qt of water) and soup heats in 6 min instead of 12 (3 qt pot about half full).  They have a number of choices that might work for you.  Think of it as doubling the size of your burner without adding any more heat to your kitchen.

http://turbopot.com/

Doc

dwcoleman's picture
dwcoleman

Awesome purchase, you will love it.

You should look into purchasing some food safe bags.  Garbage bags(even white ones) can contain chemicals which could leech into your bread.

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hello Joy,
Your bagels are so, so beautiful!!!
Love what's in your seed mix, and thanks for the tip on how to get the seeds to stay put.
Next time I make bagels I'll be grateful I saw your post :^)
Wishing you the best for your birthday, and bagel-and-bialy baking (congratulations on your new mixer, too).
(My copy of ITJB arrived last week and I made some bialys yesterday - first time I've ever tasted one - Yum!).
:^) breadsong

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

This forum is truly the greatest. I enjoy the learning that happens here. Thanks, shastaflour, Glenn, Doc, dwcoleman and breadsong, for your replies. Interesting, Glenn, that your decision was based much as mine was, bagel dough. I must be fair, though. I upped the hydration of the ITJB bagel recipe to 55% when I first used the Bosch, and it handled it without blinking. I like the way the power cycles higher and lower as the mix progresses; it's easy to hear. Such a responsive machine. I thought the semi-opaque white garbage bags were safe; heard that from a couple of sources, but I guess I need to investigate further. I bought plastic food-grade bags from PHG along with the mixer, but they're not large enough to insert a baking sheet with proofing bagels. Any suggestions for places to look? I just made bialys (second time I've done so), and, because the weather was so hot (didn't put on the air conditioner), they rose so quickly that I think they over-proofed. The results was those softballs that Stan describes in the ITJB recipe. I'll have to post some photos--another time. I'm going to make another batch early in the day and hope they end up looking like bialys.
Joy

Elagins's picture
Elagins

I'm enjoying the mixer conversation a great deal. Interesting thing is that I'm moving more in the direction of hand-mixing, especially the slack, 80% hydration doughs I've been turning into European style hearth breads (as some point, will post on them). Also, we're in the process of redoing our kitchen and just bought a Bosch 8650 oven, which I'm very excited about (also learned that Bosch and Thermador are the same company). Will let you all know how it works once the kitchen is up and running sometime next month.

As for the bialys, the softballs happen when they're inadequately proofed. The trick to perfect bialys is to let them come to full proof, i.e., on the verge of collapse when you touch them, before you pull them into their final shape. If they're not fully proofed, the oven spring will blow them spherical, while that selfsame spring, on a full proof bialy, which often is semi-collapsed when it goes into the oven, will reinflate them beautifully.

And, btw, those are absolutely gorgeous bagels. Love those sourdough blisters - the hallmark of a properly retarded dough!

Stan

 

jaywillie's picture
jaywillie

Joy, 

Ziploc makes a line of very large, food-safe storage bags that I use to retard my doughs. A 13 x 19 sheet tray fits easily inside the XXL size; the bag's almost too big, but I thought the larger size would be better for me in the long run than the smaller XL size. I got mine at Amazon, as I recall, but some of the sizes are also carried in Walmart stores and at walmart.com. Please note they are a hassle to clean -- just so big!

They are really hard to locate on the Ziploc site, so here are a couple links:

http://www.ziploc.com/Products/Pages/BigBags.aspx?SizeName=XXL  You'll notice that this Ziploc page is listed under Non-Food Storage, but the FAQs clearly state the bags are OK for food. (Not OK for microwave or oven!)

http://tinyurl.com/bagsatamazon

jaywillie


joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

Thanks, jaywillie, for the lead.  I will buy some of these.  I am a plastic bag recycler, but, you're right, washing bags is enough of a bother, and one this size . . . well, we do what we have to.

Joy

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Joy,

If you can find somebody who has some, I discovered that the nylon bags that you get to put your food into when you have a house fumigated are terrific.  They are very strong, very clear, pretty flexible, and come in at least two sizes.  And they clean up easily too.  The old ones were ~30" x 30" when flat.  The new ones are about 2 ft x 3 ft which still works for half-sheets but is not as easy to use.

 

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

who has had their house fumigated in the past.   Nylon, eh, food safe.  Who would have thought?

Thanks for the suggestion,  

Joy

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

As Stan says above, dough fully proofed for bialy success.  I just posted yesterday's bialy bake--finally got 'em right:   http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/29163/bialysfinally-got-them-looking-bialys.  And thanks for that bagel praise--kind and encouraging words!

Joy

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

Just finished a first batch of ITJB Water Bagels and have a few questions for those of you who have mastered them. The dough recipe calls for 1 TBL 22g of malt either syrup or powder. Syrup weighs 22g but 1 tbl of powder is about 12g. Do I add 2 of the powder?? Boiling I used 2 of syrup with good results and used the ice cooling bath as per Hamelman. How long in the boil bath...they float after about 30 seconds? Is the ice bath necessary?They are cracking upon baking at 460 for 18 minutes, which while purely aesthetic ,I am curious as to the reason. I realize applying seeds will cover this but I am a plain bagel guy till I master the craft. Thanks in advance. Matt

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

Matt, I find that 1 TBSP of malt powder in the dough is ample.  Using too much will make the crumb gummy and off-tasting.  I use the syrup in the boil (2-3 TBSP in a half-filled big (?) soup pot, enough to look like "dark tea," in Hamelman's words.

I do use the ice bath (usually bake a dozen, which is two baking sheets, w/ semolina-dusted parchment), but Hamelman in the new ed'n of Bread says it isn't necessary if your batch will all be baked at the same time (assuming he means that the boiled bagels shouldn't sit in a "hot" to "warm" condition for too long).  I bake them with convection on two baking sheets with ample room between, reversing them at halfway through, 460 deg. F. (435 F. at convection setting).  If I see that they're browning too fast, I lower the convection to 425 F.  I want them fully baked but not "burned."  I like them a deep golden brown.

As for the boil or poaching as some call it, 30 seconds on each side is what I do.  I have a large skimming tool and flip them over.  I usually boil 3 at a time if I'm baking a dozen.  Then the ice bath (opt.), then they go onto a towel (flat cotton) atop a small cooling rack,  While they're still wet (well cooled), I brush them with egg white if I'm going to dip them into a seed tray.  I don't know what exactly you mean by "cracking," but if it's at the join where you rolled them, maybe you need a firmer seal, need to handle them at a non-joined spot on the unbaked bagel, or you might want another shaping method (hole in the middle of a dough ball, enlarged to proper dimensions).  If you mean that there's sometimes separation on top of the seeded bagels once they're baked, yes, that happens to me too and it really doesn't bother me.  Sometimes seeded ones aren't as evenly colored as plain ones.  Knowing when to take them off the baking sheet, whether to turn them around for even baking, is a judgment call.  It's sometimes a little tricky making sure they don't slide off if you want to leave a couple to bake a little longer. I remove the "done" ones with a wide spatula and set them on a large cooling rack.  Usually most of them are done at the same time.

Hope I've answered in a helpful manner. --Joy

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

Thank you..I was hoping you or Stan would be the expert to answer. By cracking I mean...if you look at your perfectly shiney plain bagel pictured above..mine have a separation in the shiney finish with a bit of the inside peeking through...kind of a cracked paint look. They were delicious but as everything I do breadwise I strive for perfection. And I do appreciate all of your contributions....every topic I seek I find Joy and thats a good thing. Have a great weekend and I will follow all your advice and also make them a bit larger next time.

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

Hope your efforts bring you satisfaction.  As I said in another instance, beauty (even in bread) is only skin-deep.  The final test is taste--good or even great taste with the chewing.  Machines make perfect; hand-crafted brings its own esthetic. --Joy