The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

How to make a yeasty soft roll

zooterist's picture
zooterist

How to make a yeasty soft roll

Occasionally I like to make soft rolls, which is what many Southerners prefer.  The problem I'm having is there is no yeastiness to the rolls when they're done.  I like to be able to smell and taste a mild, residual yeastiness in warm homemade rolls.   The best bread I ever made was years ago and required hours to make.  It was a small French loaf baked on a terra cotta mold.  It went thorugh three risings before going into the oven.  I didn't know yeast could last that long, but it did. 

How does one impart that mild yeastiness to bread? 

Caveat:  I like to do the kneading in a food processor.  It's less messy and it's much faster.  Normally I put in all the dry ingredients (including a "quick rise" yeast) into the processor and then pour in very warm, wet liquid(s), letting the processor run until a ball has formed.  Then I let it whirl for another 30 to 45 seconds before putting it in a greased bowl in the oven with a bowl of warm water.   I know this technique is probably sacrilege to bread purists and artisans, but I'm neither.  I just want to to impart a little yeastiness to my soft rolls. 

Any suggestions?

 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Two things you can try. 

1. Use more yeast - or make some yeast water and heat it to kill off the active yeast but leave their chemistry behind (150g warm water, 1t sugar, 3t yeast; let it sit until it stops foaming; heat to 140°F in microwave; cool; add to mix as part of your liquid).  You may need to add 50 mg of ascorbic acid as a slow oxydizer to get the dough to behave after you add so much l-cysteine to the mix.

2. Investigate the tangzhong method of cooking up some of the flour with some of the water (to a temperature of 65°C/149°F) to form a starch gel, then cooling it before incorporating it into your dough.  Makes for soft crumb.

(edited to add note about l-cysteine and ascorbic acid)

zooterist's picture
zooterist

I will give it a try and see what happens.  I might even Google that "tangzhong method" thingy and try that.  Who knows.  But I can definitely do the first one. 

 

zooterist's picture
zooterist

. . . the rolls are delicious!  I'm not sure I did it right, but the rolls themselves have a mildly sweet flavor. I don't really know if I let the tangzhong reach 150 degrees before taking it off the heat because I didn't have a thermometer that would work in such a shallow depth, but I let the tangzhong sit out overnight.  The next morning, being lazy and impatient, I put all the dry stuff in a food processor rather than in a mixer, mixed half the tangzhoung with the milk and egg (as in a recipe I found after Googling the tangzhoung method) and poured that into the running food processor.  Since the recipe said to knead for 18 minutes, I just let the processor run longer.  I got a ball immediately.  After I let the processor run more, the dough turned back into an amorphous gooey globlike compound, but I pulled it out of the processor bowl anyway and let it sit for a few minutes.  I kneaded it by hand on a floured board just a very few times and it quickly became a ball again.  I let it rise once, punched it down, and then shaped it into individual rolls and then let the rolls rise.   I brushed them with beaten egg and baked them at 325 for 20 minutes, again per the recipe.  I don't know for sure that I got the tangzhong to the right temp, and I know for a fact I didn't follow the kneading instructions, but the rolls are terrific.  Next time I do this I'll kill some yeast first and include that with the liquds as well. 

 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

If the roux just started to thicken when you took if off the heat then it was OK.  It works great to make a soft loaf or roll, but is less helpful if you are trying to produce an open crumb.  I suspect that you over kneaded the dough and the gluten started to break down.  You are lucky you got it to come back together.  When you use the killed yeast it will be even more sensitive to over mixing - thus the suggestion to add a little Vit C to the flour, but you don't need much (about 1/4 of the size of a baby asprin or enough to make a 1/8" square pile on a spoon handle is plenty per Kg of flour).  More won't hurt, but that is all it takes. And the ascorbic acid takes a while to take effect so you may want to knead/mix and then let it sit for 20 min before you finish it up.

 

zooterist's picture
zooterist

The tangzhou dough did look gelatinous, but considering what you said I might actually have over cooked it.  Not sure.  The whole thing became a glob but easily poured by the dollops, resembling a thick clabbered milk, into the milk the following morning.  The roll had a slightly sweet edge and was delicious, which I guess was just because I put 3 tbsp sugar in the recipe, but the finished product was not noticeably softer or its texture finer or coarser than the soft rolls I made several days previously.  So maybe I'll try this again, overcome my laziness, and actually knead the bread by hand for once, since the quick-rise yeast helps address my impatience issue.  :-)  

Oh, and I'm glad you explained that the l-whatever was actually vitamin C.  That I can find. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

poolish with a small amout of regular yeast ahead of time and then add that to your regular mix.  Or you could add a small amount of SD if you have that too.  I have never used dried brewers yeast, will some day,  but a small amout of that might also help - you would have to test it. 

zooterist's picture
zooterist

Sorry, but I don't have a clue what SD refers to.   South Dakota is all that comes to mind.

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

In bread baking lingo, sd is the abbreviation for sourdough.

zooterist's picture
zooterist

There was an article in the paper recently that explained how to create a starter.  I was intrigued and gave it some thought but then decided against it.  The article claimed that the same process will produce a different taste from geographical location to georgraphical location because it has to do wth the local natural ambient  yeast one can capture. It went on to explain that that's what makes San Fran famous for its sourdough breads.   I live on the eastern seaboard of VA two or three miles from the ocean.  Considering how different this coastal area is from the San Fran coastal area, I have no doubt but that there's a different yeast in the air. :-)

 

ssorllih's picture
ssorllih

I am always amazed at the efforts people go to in making simple breads. Try this; weigh out eight ounces of flour, a teaspoon of yeast and a half teaspoon of table salt into a one quart bowl. Blend together and add 6 ounces of warm water, mix with a spoon until it is uniformly moist, leave in the bowl and cover with a plate for at least one hour. Dump onto a very generously floured table and coax into a single strand about two inches wide. divide into six pieces and dust them well with flour and drop them  into  texas size muffin tin. Let rise for at least an hour. Bake at 350 F for 25 minutes serve within a day. After that you have day old bread going stale. This is a very good fresh bread. No bread is very good after two days. 

fermento's picture
fermento

Though there are yeasts in the air, the yeasts in a sourdough starter come from the flours you use to get it started, which is why it's a good idea to use more than one flour in the beginning. And the lactobacillus which gives the San Francisco breads their flavour is found all over the globe - and cultivating it has more to do with temperatures, processes and hydration than with location. Location does affect breadmaking, but in other ways - humidity, ambient temperatures and their range and the way they rise and fall, altitude, and of course the types of flours available locally.

Give it (making a starter) a go, you'll never regret it! It's the sort of thing which no matter what level you practice on, you can get great pleasure and satisfaction from.

One other myth I'll hopefully dispose of while I'm at it - yeast itself has no flavour, in bread they all come from elsewhere, the lactobacillus, the flour, etc.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

While the yeast are not "wild", there are many (20 or so along with about the same number of LAB) varieties that show up in sourdough starters.  The yeast themselves are not necessarily flavorful, but they contribute in a significant way to the formation of flavor compounds. 

"Components of bread flavor originate from fermentative and thermal reactions. Enzymes provide precursors for both processes, and their influence should be controlled. Enzymes are now replacing other improving additives in breadmaking, indirectly affecting bread flavor. Amylases produce reducing sugars, which are (1) fermentable substrates for fermentative microflora leading to numerous aromatic compounds, those of lower volatility remaining in bread, and (2) precursors of many components (mainly carbonyls) after reacting with amino acids in nonenzymatic browning reactions. Proteases produce peptides and amino acids, which, like sugars, participate in metabolic and thermal reactions and can occasionally be a source of bitter peptides. Lipoxygenase from soy or faba flour, used in some breadmaking processes, gives unstable products decomposing to carbonyl compounds generating off flavors in bread. In addition, the ingredients, the breadmaking process, and the baking conditions modify enzymatic activity and bread flavor."

quoted from the abstract of Enzymes and bread flavor, M. Antonia Martínez-AnayaInstituto de Agroquímica y Tecnología de Alimentos (CSIC), Pol. La Coma s/n, 46980 Paterna, Valencia, SpainJ. Agric. Food Chem., 1996, 44 (9), pp 2469–2480
dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

of commercial yeast by Fleischmann, most breads were made from natural yeasts like SD - all over the world.  For me to get a bread that tastes the way I like it,  SD is the key to doing so.  When I lived in Richmond we made SD bread that was just as tasty as many I have had in SF.   Same for Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Missouri, Kansas, Florida or anywhere else we have lived - the breads just taste a little tiny bit different in each place is all.   For breads that don't need a SD flavor I use yeast water (YW) instead of commercial yeast.  Plus, natural starters and other yeast cultures not only make great breads of all kinds - they are fun to cultivate - sort of like gardening.  Instant yeasts are very much like instant coffee, tea or pudding to many folks.  Breads made naturally do take longer, more planning and require a little more skill possibly - but it so well worth it.  Others feel differently which is fine by me and is what makes the world go around.

You should give SD another consideration since it is the way bread was naturally made for thousands of years and still made by so many all over the world.    Now,  salt rising bread is another matter entirely :-)