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How does BBGA format do multi-stage starter builds? If at all?

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Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

How does BBGA format do multi-stage starter builds? If at all?

I'm converting Silverton's Olive Bread to BBGA format.

Mini helped me resolve the math issues, which are now correct. Thanks, Mini!

What I'm not sure about is how to represent a multi-stage starter build process in the BBGA format.

By multi-stage, I mean the following:

  • Build 1
  • Build 2 includes all of Build 1
  • Build 3 all of Build 2

Silverton's Olive Bread calls for 12.5 ounces (353 grams) of white starter at 145% hydration.

It doesn't call for a multi-build process, but that's usually how I do it: I take a bit of mother starter out of the fridge and make Build 1; make Build 2 after a few hours/doubling; make Build 3 after Build 2 doubles.

QUESTIONS:

1. Before I ask how to use the BBGA format to represent this process, maybe I should ask: Should I use it the BBGA format to represent this process? Or is it something that would be considered an external process? As in: the fully built starter is "the ingredient" to include in the formula, not the build process for it.

2. Is this how it should be done? If not, how else? As another formula apart from this formula? (CLICK IMAGE FOR LARGER VERSION)

Thanks!

Thomas

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Thomas:

I'm not familiar with the BBGA format, but I can share with you how I did it back in 2010, when I still used several SD builds in my procedure.  Nowadays I don't 'build' anymore as I've altered my workflow and am still able to achieve the flavor profiles I desire. 

It is an additional step outside of my main table, but the principle behind this side step remains the same as the main one.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15673/100106-mr-hamelman039s-3stage-90-rye

 

Yippee

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

It looks like you do the builds outside of the main build as well, at I think that's what you're doing.

That's probably what I'll end up doing as well.

It just doesn't 'look right' as is.

-

How have you altered your workflow to avoid builds? Do you just do 1 big batch of starter?

Yippee's picture
Yippee

I usually use multiple starters and manipulate the fermentation time and temperature to develop depth of flavors.

fancy4baking's picture
fancy4baking

I was thinking about that ever since i read Varda's Borodisky Bread that needs multistage starter build.

I came up with a spreadsheet that i think would serve that objective, but it can surely be used as to address the issue of regular sourdough breads or even commerically yeasted bread, but to be honest i'm not quiet 100% sure of it's effectiveness. 

If interested let me know, i can send it to you and you can have a look at it and see if there's anything we can do to improve it, if it needs improvement --- :P i'm not saying that it doesn't :D

Izzat

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

Hi Izzat.

I'd love you see your spreadsheet. Maybe it'll be something I can use too (or learn something new from).

I noticed two build spreadsheets in the TOOLS menus above, but the documentation on how to use them is insifficent. I've played around with them some, but I can't figure out how to use them.

Thanks,

Thomas

proth5's picture
proth5

on how you would use the BBGA format for this (and I think I've seen examples)

Pretty much you do as you have done.  You could/should add labels on the left hand side for "Build 1", "Build 2", etc. You needn't calculate the percentages, though.

What doesn't "look right" in terms of the formulas?  They give me all the information that I need in a concise format.

And yes, you can and should use the standard - that is why I like it so much - you can use it for just about anything.

Although how one knows the desired water temperature in advance and can write it into a formula is a bit beyond my understanding... Usually desired dough temperature is written in the instructions as would the instructions on the build.

Let me know what you think.

 

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

I originally had labels for "Build 1, Build 2, etc.", but removed them, thinking, "They're not really 'ingredients'."

I guess they are, though, as Build 1 is an ingredient in Build 2, Build 2 is an ingredient in Build 3, etc.

Will remove the percentages for the builds (and have to admit that 513% looks a bit silly, even if it's accurate).

(I wrote this post hoping you'd chime in, because me thinks you might be the only person who has access to (or has subscribed to) the BBGA listserv. So, thanks much for responding!)

-

I think I'm missing you point re:

Although how one knows the desired water temperature in advance and can write it into a formula is a bit beyond my understanding... Usually desired dough temperature is written in the instructions as would the instructions on the build.

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

You mean that 'desired dough temp.' is what's relevant, not desired water temp.

The dough is retarded overnight, so essentially she's indicating (she wants) to 'slow things down' with cold(ish) water.

She should probably have used desired dough temperature, as 70 F water means bumpkus if the other ingredient temps and the method raise dough temp to 78 F, for example. Recipe is from 1996, though, and first time I saw the words 'desired dough temp' was circa 2004 in Hamelman.

proth5's picture
proth5

as one of your ingredients "Water 70F." - How do you know 70F?  You can't know that until you have taken your air and flour temperature and understood the friction factor of your mix method (which if you mix by hand is zero).

Just sayin'

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

About zero brain cycles went into that.

It's just a reprint from the book, which says:

1 pound 2 ounces (about 2 1/4 cups) cool water, 70 degrees F

louie brown's picture
louie brown

as it is a favorite of family and friends. But I use my regular 100% starter. If there is a hydration issue, I adjust for it by feel. I used twice as much wheat germ and thyme, and twice as many olives, dividing them among four kinds. I also stretch and fold based on what I see the dough doing. The variety of olives gives a nicely detailed taste to the entire crumb and the wheat germ adds texture. This is the best olive bread I've ever had and a completely different animal than bread with olives. Here is a fecent crumb shot. This is just the way I like it.

If the Silverton book, which I love, has a weakness, it is in the starter instructions.

 

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

I too double the olives and the thyme.

I haven't doubled the wheat germ (if fact, just recently realized I've been using wheat bran all along, thinking it was the same as wheat germ). Will try doubling it.

I agree that her starter instructions are not the best, but you know what? Everytime I have to rebuild a white starter, I always go back to her method (although I reduce the ridiculous amounts of flour by 50%–if I don't, I gain 5 lbs. from all the pancakes I have to eat (so the flour isn't wasted) over the two+ weeks it takes to build it). :D

The Olive Bread is one of my all-time favorites. It's a truly wonderful bread, as are many of the breads in her book, like the walnut and fig-anise.

[I wish she'd do a 2nd edition to improve its weaknesses, but I think she's moved on (from bread). I purchased her recent Mozza cookbook and she gives scant attention to the one pizza dough recipe in the book. Was very surprised by that.]

louie brown's picture
louie brown

Yes, it would seem so. Too bad, because she did a great job with that book, which doesn't seem to get the attention of some other favorite authors. I agree, I'd love to see a second edition.

The last time I made these, I gave two to a friend, one to keep and one to pass along to another friend. This other friend said to the first friend, "If he'd given them to me, I'd have kept both of them and never said anything to you." Whenever I make it, it's in demand.