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Sourdough falls after 2nd proof

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karencolleen's picture
karencolleen

Sourdough falls after 2nd proof

I'm a very beginner in making sourdough bread.  I've baked 2 round loaves.  Great flavor but the consistency of a brick.  Both loaves fell during the process of removing from proofing basket to peel and onto the baking stone.  Do I need to proof a 3rd time on the peel or what?  I just know that I'm missing something obvious. 

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

Without any recipe details I am guessing but your loaves are almost assuredly overproofed.  You need less proofing not more.

Jeff

dwcoleman's picture
dwcoleman

ditto

karencolleen's picture
karencolleen

Well, OK.  From Classic Sourdoughs (Ed & Jean Wood), I used the Basic Sourdough Bread recipe.  1st proof was 8-12 hours.  After removing the dough from the bowl and resting it for 30 minutes, it went into a proofing basket for 2-4 hours.  After that, I transferred dough onto a peel & slid onto the baking stone in the oven at which point it lost it's loft.  I have a warmig drawer below my over with a bread proofing setting.  That's what I used since my house temp tends to be around 64 this time of year.  So, if I proofed too long, which proof should I shorten.  I really want to get this right.

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

8-12 hrs bulk ferment is very long unless it is at reduced temperatures or a very low percentage of starter is used.  Try to gauge it by volume - a rule of thumb is that it should roughly double during the first proof.  You didn't mention shaping - that usually comes between the rest and the final proof.  The purpose of shaping is to create tension in the gluten on the surface and is very important in maintaining the loaf structure.

-Brad

 

Olof's picture
Olof

Well, the recipe says 8 to 12 hours for the first rise but for how long did you actually do it? Then it states 2 to 4 hours for the final proof. How long did you actually do it then?

Try placing a thermometer inside the warming drawer so you will know how warm it is exactly. It might be too warm and if you proof for 4 hours without checking that status of the dough with the finger poking test, your bread is probably doomed.

But I agree with the others. Collapsed bread indicates too long proofing the second time. But one must also be careful not to let the dough bulk ferment for the first time. 

karencolleen's picture
karencolleen

I can't say precisely how long (my bad) but I know that I was under 4 hours on the 2nd proof because I had to get back outside to work.  I will get a thermometer & check the temp inside the drawer.    Finger poking test?  Not sure I understand what you mean by dough bulk ferment for the 1st time. 

You're dealing with a real newbie here, sorry.

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

Karen,

Recipes and the techniques within are rough guidelines.  8-12 hours may have been perfect in Ed's kitchen and way too short in mine and much too long in yours.  Every kitchen is different.   

Every kitchen is different. 

So is every oven and every baker.  These can be, and often are,  large differences and that is why recipes are but mere guidelines.

Do not be discouraged by your results as every bake is a learning experience and if you pay attention, this is true for a lifetime.  What would help you here is to learn when dough is properly proofed rather than relying on the timing printed in a recipe.  Learning the feel of properly proofed dough is an essential skill to baking and ever more important with sourdough.  Yeasted breads tend to be forgiving of improper proofing, sourdough is not.   Make a mistake with sourdough and the bread promises to let you know. 

If you use the search engine here you will find a great many discussions on properly proofed dough and you can begin developing that skill.

Happy Baking,

Jeff

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

Certainly overproofing will cause a loaf to fall when transferring to a peel.  Another possibility is insufficient gluten development.  You didn't mention your recipe, but I have found it takes a bit more attention to  technique when using higher hydration doughs.  Do you autolyse?  That often helps.  Stretch and fold during the bulk ferment also strengthens the dough and shaping is very important.  It takes practice, so don't give up and keep trying.

-Brad

 

karencolleen's picture
karencolleen

Recipe calls for 1 cup culture, 1 cup water, 1 tsp salt & 3 1/2 cups flour. 

Autolyse?

I'm a rancher.  By nature, we never give up.

 

 

dwcoleman's picture
dwcoleman

Do a poke test to determine when's its correctly proofed, then bake.  Unfortunately you can't set it and forget it, you'll have to monitor your loaf.

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

Autolyse is mixing the flour with the water and letting it sit for a period of time (usually 1/2 - 2 hours, but could be more) to start the gluten formation before kneading.  Starter and salt are added afterwards, then the dough is mixed and kneaded. 

Usually it is more accurate (and therefore more reproducible) to use weight instead of volume measurements.  We can make some guesses: 1 C water is roughly 240 gm or say 1/2 lb.  1 C flour is about 140 gm or say a bit under 1/3 lb.  So very roughly you are using about 2:1 ratio of flour to water (by weight).  You didn't say anything about your starter, but maybe it is 2 parts volume flour to water, which by the same rough convention, 1:1 water:flour by weight or 100% hydration.  Assuming you are kneading for several minutes, you are probably ending up with a fairly stiff dough that isn't sticky.  This would suggest overproofing as your main issue. 

If you haven't already, you might want to read the handbook on techniques on this site: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/handbook/dough-development

Hope this helps.

-Brad

sournewb71's picture
sournewb71

Karen,

I too used Ed Woods Classic Sourdoughs when I was starting out and was running into similiar problems.  I think Ed knows a lot about the bacteria and wild yeasts of sourdough but lacks knowledge in baking.  As others said check your dough after each hour until it appears it has doubled.  Then release it from its container and let it rest for a few minutes.  Then shape and final proof until it looks like it has almost doubled (a little less is better than more as you learned).

karencolleen's picture
karencolleen

Thanks so much to all of you who took the time to respond.  You're a wealth of good info.

Davo's picture
Davo

First, on terminology, most reserve the term "proof" for only the stage after the loaf is shaped, so there's only one "proof", not two. The stage of rise/fermentation from mixing up the bread dough and before shaping is the "bulk ferment" (for most people).

Yes, everyone's kitchen is different, but for those ratios, and for my kitchen, 8-12 hours would be WAY  too long. I typically would use about 3 hours from mixing up the bread dough, with stretch-and-folds during that time. I'm also not so fussed about making sure the dough doubles (during the bulk ferment)  before shaping and putting into baskets for the proof. So long as I can see small bubbles starting to form, I'm happy, and I usually shape when it's a bit less than double.

karencolleen's picture
karencolleen

Ver helpful.  Thanks so much.  I'll have another go at it soon so I can put to use all of the good & consistent advice I've gotten from you all.

karencolleen's picture
karencolleen

I still have a long way to go but my most recent load was a huge improvement thanks to all of you who responded.  Although I like a hard crust, it was maybe a little too hard?  Also could have had a better crumb towards the middle of the loaf. 

twnhs's picture
twnhs

Thank you for asking your question, Karen. I learned much from the discussion and I'm in the process of proofing multigrain rolls in a basket. I also think your loaf turned out GREAT!

Rosemary

Grenage's picture
Grenage

I'd be happy with that, it looks lovely.