The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Borodinsky with Chocolate Rye Malt

varda's picture
varda

Borodinsky with Chocolate Rye Malt

Lately I have been trying to make a passably authentic Russian Borodinsky Rye.    Fortunately Russian bakers are very generous.    Eliabel referred my last Borodinsky post to two Russian bread bloggers - Serghei and Masha.    They gave her some feedback which she very kindly translated for me.   I've tried to incorporate their advice into my latest bake.   A sticking point for those of us who would like to make authentic Borodinsky is the malt.   The original requires a fermented rye malt called red malt.    As far as I can tell this is not available in the United States.   Furthermore the process for making it is not well adapted to a home kitchen.   See for instance the discussion on dabrownman's post.   However, there are excellent rye malts available.    I was able to purchase three different malts at a brewing supply store in Cambridge, Massachusetts:   caramel, chocolate, and simple malted rye.    The chocolate and caramel are malted seeds which are then roasted to the desired color and flavor.    For the simple malted rye, the seeds are sprouted and then dried in a kiln.  

The advice I got through Eliabel was pretty straightforward.  

1.   Kvas is not a sufficiently concentrated source of rye malt for Borodinsky

2.   Molasses should go in the final dough rather than in the scald

3.  Eliabel also quoted a new book on Rye Zavarka breads which says that the red malt process retains some of the diastatic enzymes of the malt.  

For this bake I used the chocolate malted rye in the scald, and then added some of the simple rye malt to the final dough.   I also added the molasses to the final paste rather than the scald. 

Since in earlier Borodinsky attempts both Masha and Eliabel had mentioned there should be no cracking of the top, I modified a few things to see if I could avoid it.   First, I went way up on the hydration to 98%.   Second I took Howard's advice to dock the top, and Minioven's advice to take a spatula and separate the top of the loaf from the side of the pan prior to proofing.    This is the first of many attempts in which the top did not crack.    Otherwise I followed the three stage Auerman process as detailed by Andy.    I was again unable to cover the pan during the bake because I had added so much more water that the dough was too high.   It just ended up doming slightly.  

I cut in and tasted today after a 20 hour rest.

Since the chocolate malted rye had such a strong flavor, I should probably have used a bit more freshly ground coriander than I did.    I had cut back because my malt in previous attempts wasn't strong enough to balance the coriander flavor.   Other than that, I was pretty happy with the result.

Update:   Oh, one more thing I would change.   The scald was a little dry without the molasses and so hard to mix in with the rye sour.   Next time, instead of adding the extra 50g of water to the final dough, I would add more water to the scald.   

Borodinsky with Chocolate Rye Malt

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rye Sour

 

5:15 PM

9:00 PM

 

 

Seed

60

 

 

 

 

Whole Rye

32

75

140

247

 

Water

28

135

250

413

167%

 

 

 

 

660

 

Scald

 

 

 

 

 

Whole Rye

104

 

 

 

 

Chocolate Malted Rye

36

 

 

 

 

Boiling Water

249

adjusted for evaporation

 

Ground coriander

4

 

 

 

 

 

393

 

 

 

 

Sponge

 

 

 

 

 

Rye Sour

552

 

 

 

 

Scald

393

 

 

 

 

 

945

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Total

Final

Sour

Scald

Total

Percent

Whole Rye

207

207

104

517

79%

KABF

138

 

 

138

21%

Water

50

345

249

644

98%

Molasses

41

 

 

41

6%

Chocolate Malted Rye

 

 

36

36

5%

Malted Rye

9

 

 

9

1.4%

Salt

10

 

 

10

1.5%

Ground coriander

 

 

4

4

0.6%

Sponge

945

 

 

 

 

 

 

552

393

1400

 

Sour factor

0.84

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Feed starter as above

 

 

 

 

 

At second feeding, make the scald

 

 

 

Leave overnight (12 hours.)  Sour is frothy

 

 

 

Mix scald and starter

 

 

 

 

 

Ferment for 5.5 hours

 

 

 

 

 

Add final ingredients - mix by hand until blended

 

 

Ferment for 1 hour

 

 

 

 

 

Note that paste was very fluffy and aerated at this point

 

 

Spoon into greased bread pan.   Smooth down with wet spatula.

 

Spray top with water and do so at intervals

 

 

 

Cover

 

 

 

 

 

Proof for 1 hour 55 minutes

 

 

 

 

Very bubbly and starting to get holey on top

 

 

 

Oven preheated to 550 for 1 hour - steam pan for last 30 minutes of preheat

Put bread in oven and bring temperature back to 550

 

 

Then reduce to 350

 

 

 

 

 

Bake for 1 hour 15 min covered with foil after first 15 minutes

 

 

 

then remove steam pan, remove bread from pan and bake for 30 minutes

 

Comments

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

and a great write-up.

Good motivation to put a Borodinsky on my ToDo list again.

Thank you,

Juergen

varda's picture
varda

Juergen,  This is a little more involved than a Russian Rye, but really pretty straightforward.   I don't think you would have any trouble with it, and would enjoy the flavor.   Thanks so much for your comments.   -Varda  

jcking's picture
jcking

I'd buy the house next to yours just to smell the fabulous loaves you're baking :-)

Well done girlfriend!!

Jim

varda's picture
varda

Hey Jim,  Thanks so much.   My husband tasted some and said something like "this is all right."    Jeesh.    So it would be nice to have a breadhead neighbor to counteract that.  -Varda

sweetbird's picture
sweetbird

I'm mesmerized by these photos, Varda. This is a bread that I have no history with whatsoever, so your posts and others have begun to introduce me to the concept of it. It's fascinating and I think your loaf looks absolutely spectacular!

Wow!....Janie

varda's picture
varda

or more to get past the unfamiliarity and make it.    Now, I can't get enough of it.    Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

That is a beautiful Borodinski you produced.  The very best I have seen.  The crumb is even glossy, no cracked top - the best so far and you haven't tried them in the WFO yet?  You are right the red malt should be diastatic according to Eliabel's description to me.  We aren't going to be making it at home unless we decide to malt gains grains for beer on a very large scale and have a large place to do it.....So where did you get the malt?  Online or walk in? Of the 2 darker flavors (who knew) chocolate sounds the most iinteresting

This bread must taste fantastic.

You get an extra special great job for this one! Just fantastic

varda's picture
varda

Hi DA.   I had been aware of this store for awhile but hadn't connected the dots to figure out I could get malted rye there.    I don't know if they sell online or not.   The website that comes up when you search seems to be disabled.   The bread is very yummy and very intensely flavored from the malt.   I added the unroasted rye malt to get some of that diastatic action.    But risingwise, this one didn't behave differently from the others I've made.   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

wassisname's picture
wassisname

That looks incredible, Varda!  "Intense" is the word that keeps popping into my head...wow.  Your passion for this bread is inspiring, thanks!

Marcus

varda's picture
varda

Hi Marcus.   I keep coming back to this because the flavor is just so good, and yes, intense.    Thanks so much for commenting.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Varda,

Thanks so much for this blog piece and all the info. you shared about how to handle this dough.  When I tried it last I got the cracked top too so your notes on how you remedied that are very helpful.

What does chocolate malt taste like?  Like bitter sweet chocolate? Or does it retain the rye flavor only at a different 'level'?

I will have to make a copy of your latest bake so that when I plan another rye like this one I can give it a go but without all the extra malted ryes you were able to find.  Your pictures are a perfect guide by which to compare my results.

Take Care,

Janet

Thanks Again!

varda's picture
varda

but also rye-y and malty.   Hard to explain.    In any case, thanks so much for your comments Janet.   Good luck on defeating the cracked top.  -Varda

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

And a monumental loaf! I'm very impressed.

David

varda's picture
varda

David,   I was going for the triumphalist architecture look - what a thing to do to a humble loaf of bread.   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

FlourChild's picture
FlourChild

Wow, just, wow. 

Loved following this project, great to get to see what interesting things you're doing!  Wish I could taste it...

varda's picture
varda

you will have to move fast.   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

sam's picture
sam

Varda, that looks incredible.   It almost looks like a really big chocolate brownie! (on my computer screen)   Very nice.   I bet it tastes amazing.

 

varda's picture
varda

Yes, a great big brownie.    I almost called it a Chocolate Borodinsky, but I figured that would just rile up the chocoholics.    (And I hope people realize that there is no chocolate in this whatsoever.)   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Simply Put, a masterpiece! Varda, that is a fabulous looking Borodinsky! The size, appearance, and crumb all look so professional. You ought to be pleased, and proud of yourself.

Excellent efforts, Varda!

God willing, I'll be baking a Volkornbrot soon!

varda's picture
varda

Khalid, what a nice thing to say.   It is good to learn to make this bread because it tastes so good.   Good luck with your Volkornbrot.   I have not tried that yet.   -Varda

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Probably not the way you would eat it...but I can imagaine a tray of your lovely Borodinsky made up into a whole assortment of the tastiest  tea sandwiches : ) 

Sylvia   

varda's picture
varda

Hi Sylvia.   Hmmm.   For tea sandwiches, would you cut off the crust?    I'm just trying to imagine it.   Thank you for commenting.  -Varda

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Slice into three, using two slices, only the middle would be crustless.  For doing shapes, yes you would loose the crust..and some bread..the bread left would have many other uses.

Example of why your loaf has me drooling : )  don't have to have a top slice on thicker slices.. 

Sylvia

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I want to eat any of those tea time sandwiches right now and take a few for later.  Can see why Varda's masterpiece has you drooling.  I need a drool cup for your sandwiches - one of my favorite things in the world - and rye bread.

varda's picture
varda

Sylvia, Those sandwiches look terrific.   Thanks for the examples.  -Varda

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

  Just lovely!

...and a layer of creamy butter and Nutella is also good on a slice, double choco!    >faint<

varda's picture
varda

Mini,   I wholly support the butter idea.   I think your technique of separating the sides from the pan with a spatula helps a lot.   I don't think it stops the cracking, but it makes the rise a lot more even.   So thanks for that and your comments.  -Varda

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

Varda,

You're tenacious! Guess it's one of those bread things that's hard to explain. 

Two questions:

  1. How thin can you cut the Borodinsky.
  2. What toppings have you tried.
I'm thinking things like smoked salmon, caviar, feet of angel cheeses etc..,

Wild-Yeast

varda's picture
varda

Wild-Yeast,   I think you are right about that bread tenacity thing.   Why ask why?    You can slice this pretty thin, but not super thin like a German Rye, say a half inch/centimeter at the thinnest.   I have been longing for pickled herring to go with this, but don't seem to have any.   I have been eating it plain (really delicious) with creamcheese and butter.   And I put a few slices of very thin hard salami on it which was just totally awesome.   But the bottom line is I must go get some pickled herring.   I think all the choices you mentioned would be good.  -Varda

Franko's picture
Franko

Truly an awesome loaf Varda! So good to see all your hard work in pursuit of this bread has paid off with such stellar results. The nice square corners of the loaf show careful molding/panning of the paste, with the overall shape being very even. Love the open celled structure of the crumb and how moist it looks as well. A great success, congratulations!

Best Wishes,

Franko 

varda's picture
varda

Franko,   One thing I love about this bread is how delicious it tastes days out, and better the second day after bake than first day.    It seems that with this type of bread you have to learn a whole different set of skills, and practice, practice, practice is the only way to do it.   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

isand66's picture
isand66

Varda,

Beautiful and amazing looking bread.  I am anxious to give this a try when I get back from my business trip.

I found a brewery shop on Long Island where I live.  Can you tell me if below is what I should be buying?

Also, how did you prepare the malted rye?

varda's picture
varda

Hi Ian,   Thanks so much for your comments.   The only thing on that list that I would swear was appropriate is the rye malt at the bottom.   And I am guessing that that is malted rye berries kilned to dry, and not roasted.   You could do the roasting.   Take a look at DA's post on the subject.  The chocolate malt on the list above could be anything but I doubt it's rye unless they say so.   I believe chocolate in this context means the color the malted grain is roasted to.   So that could be barley or anything else.   I had a long and detailed discussion with the guy in the store to make sure I understood what was what.   Fortunately it wasn't busy when I went in, so he had time to talk to me.    I prepared both the chocolate rye malt and simple rye malt the same way - just ground them to powder in my coffee grinder - which now seems to be a spice and malt grinder.   Good luck!  -Varda

isand66's picture
isand66

Thanks Varda.

Can you tell me the name and adress of the store you visited?

I may be in that area this summer and would love to try and buy some for myself.

Thanks

Ian

varda's picture
varda

http://www.beerbrew.com/

Multiple locations around Boston.   I went to the one in Cambridge.  

I should have added in my last reply that you shouldn't worry about using the perfect malt.   For my first try I used Malt Syrup from Whole Foods.   This was most definitely barley based.   Andy used barley malts for awhile before he was able to source rye malt.   I still haven't been able to come up with an authentic Russian red malt.   It's all good.   Just use whatever you can lay your hands on.  -Varda

Syd's picture
Syd

That's a beauty Varda.  So rich and dark looking.  As soon as I am finished with my San Francisco sourdough experimentations, you have inspired me to make rye my next project.  Seeing as I don't have access to most of the ingredients you use in that loaf, I won't make any promises about making a borrowhatever, but I think a dark 100%  rye might not be too much of a problem. The colour of the photo third from the top is really enticing and the crumb shot looks spectacula.

Nice baking,

Syd :)

varda's picture
varda

I still have to get to your SF Sourdough.   Now should I do your original version or use the methodology that Josh suggested?    As for the borrowjawhatchamicallit  I think I should point out that it is not 100% rye.   It's more like 79%, the rest of the flour being whatever high gluten wheat flour you can get your hands on.    Andy has a new formula he's been posting about that I think he calls Moscow Rye, that is very similar to this but it is 100% rye.   I haven't tried that yet.   The color of this loaf is without question from the malt.   For each of the attempts I've made, the final crumb color was almost a perfect match to the color of the malt that I used.   I'm looking forward to seeing whatever you come up with no matter how flavored, colored, etc.   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

eliabel's picture
eliabel

Varda,

your Borodinsky is almost unbelievable perfect. Thanks for kind words.

Olga

varda's picture
varda

Thanks so much, Olga, for your comments and your help.   It has been a lot of fun working on this.  -Varda

fancy4baking's picture
fancy4baking

Gosh this is such a wonderful bread Varda. Very well done. I can say this is just over the top bread.

Gosh i can almost smell the aromas. :D

There is a question in my mind Varda:

When you described Whole Rye, or Malted Rye, or Malted Chocolate rye, you meant Whole Rye Flour or whoel rye grains?

Excuse my ignorence please :-)

Izzat

varda's picture
varda

Hi Izzat,   Thanks so much for commenting.   I used Whole Rye Flour as the base flour for the loaf.   For flavor I added Chocolate Malted Rye which means rye berries (could also call them grains or seeds) which are sprouted, then heated at a low temperature to dry, then roasted to get the chocolate color and a deep flavor.    I also added some Diastatic Malted Rye - again these are rye berries that have been sprouted and low temperature heated to dry but not roasted.   In theory at least there is some enzymatic action in the malted rye which helps with fermentation.    I ground both types of  malted rye before using.    Hope this helps.  -Varda

fancy4baking's picture
fancy4baking

Hi Varda, how's it going?

May i ask you about the hydration of the initial 60 gr. seed starter that you used in your recipe?

Thanks,

Izzat

varda's picture
varda

of seed starter is 88%.   If you look at the numbers below the 60 in the formula above, that is the break down into flour and water of the seed starter, then the added flour and water for feeding to the right.     Let me know how it goes.  -Varda

fancy4baking's picture
fancy4baking

After long time of thinking and contimplating on the idea of making my favorite Borodisnky for the first time ever, also after seeing what Varda has superbly done with hers, i decided to take a step forward into bringing my first Borodinsky into life ---or i thought i could---

so i followed Varda's recipe and method to the letter, and made my first loaf of Borodinsky today. 

I know, i know i can't by any means compete with Varda's outstanding product, and on the other hand i can't have a constructive and objective critique if i attended to asses the result i came with. So here's what i did, and i'm leaving the comments and assesments to you (please do me a favor and tell me what you think honestly and directly). But just to let you know what i think of it, well i was surprised to see that i could make it with such mediocre sort of bread, maybe i was under-estimating myself in doing it :$

The crust has a bit of crunshiness in it. Honestly i know that it shouldn't come out this way. And more honestly i don't quite know what caused this light crunshiness. The crumb was fine. The flavor was really really good. I added some black sesame and toasted sesame to it which gave a really nice taste to it. And of course, my freshly ground coriander was absolutely delctable. But maybe i added more of it to so coriander flavor was a little bit more pronounced. In addition to that, my organic blackstrap ---which is not fresh at all---has been sitting in my pantry ageing for quite a long time. Luckily it was absolutely in perfect condition, but maybe in condensed over the time and resulted in more sweet that it would had been had it been used fresh, thus there was a clear sweetness in the loaf, which nobody raised a voice of objection, even my diabetic mom. 

Well i said enough, now it's your turn to disect my Borodinsky, give advices on how to improve it next time.

And thanks in advance.

Izzat.r

Thanks, 

Izzat

varda's picture
varda

Congratulations on making your first Borodinsky.   It came out much better than my first.     I am not sure I can do such a good critique based on a few pictures, and I'm really glad it tasted so good, because that is what makes it worthwhile.    I am wondering if you oiled your pan as I wonder if the cracking along one side came from it sticking in the pan.   I see the other side came out just right and the holiness you can see on the side is exactly right.    Also I'm wondering whether you took it out of the pan during the bake to brown the crust.    Andy doesn't do that, but I like the taste of the crunchy crust in contrast to the soft crumb - and find the crust too pale unless I remove it.   Also I'm wondering how long you waited before slicing.   It makes a big difference.   The longest I've been able to go before temptation gets to me is around 20 hours, but that seems to be enough.    I think you did a great job, and it will only get better with practice.   -Varda

fancy4baking's picture
fancy4baking

Well to answer your questions:

-Yes i not only oiled the pan, but dusted it with bran. So think that that crack you see on one side is resulting from not leveling the dough properly into the pan. I filled scooped the dough into the pan, then i leveld only the surface with spatula, so i'm guessing maybe i should have leveled every layer i had added into the pan.

-Yes when it finished baking as per the timing you indicated in your method, it looked too pale for me. It's a matter of preference, i put it back into the oven for few minutes on very low gas to get some sort of color that looks darker than English pound cake.

-As for how long i waited, this is another different story that i had no control over. I was planning to leave it to completely cool and then put it in my bread bag for at least 24 hours. But later i was stunned to see it cut and eaten by mom who could not find any means to have some patience till next day. So you know now who to blame. I was pissed off, but the honestly the reaction i got from mom was compensating for she loved the taste, and appreciated my efforts. But yes surely you are right, next day (after more than 20 hours of baking) it tasted differently with very intense flavors of coriander, molasses, sesame black seeds.

Thanks Varda for your input and feedback.

You know, today i had my sprouted whole wheat ready. And i was wondering if by any chance i could use them malted as described with rye!!! Does that make any difference in bread if i add them to whole wheat bread or even to Borodinsky?

 

Thanks,

Izzat