The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Raw Egg in Icing for Panama Torte - help

varda's picture
varda

Raw Egg in Icing for Panama Torte - help

I recently recalled a cake my mother used to make - Panama Torte - which is a chocolate cake with grated almond rather than flour.    My sister just sent me the recipe which has a whole raw egg in the icing.   One of the best things I remember about the cake was the absolutely scrumptious icing.    How can this be?    Is there a way to do this safely?   Thanks!  -Varda

clazar123's picture
clazar123

In the dairy case at the grocery store, there are things like "Egg Beaters" for people that can't /won't eat real eggs and then there are similarly packaged products that are real,scrambled eggs. Pasteurized eggs, if you will. It may require a trip to a specialty or high end grocery store like Fresh Market,Trader Joes.

Also, list the recipe-maybe there is a great substitution.

varda's picture
varda

Here is the icing recipe:

3/4 c butter, softened
3 squares bitter choc
1 egg
3/4 c sugar

Beat butter and sugar until sugar dissolved. Add beaten egg. melt chocolate and add to butter mix. Ice cake. Decorate top with slivered almonds.

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

Most Salmonella poisoning comes from produce or nuts.

They can stay alive for weeks on nuts, but die rapidly on egg shells.

Here's what Nathan Myrvold says in Modernist Cuisine:

Here's that thermal death curve for Salmonella.

You could, thus, bring up the core temperature of the icing to 148 F for 2 minutes, which would insure the Salmonella are extinguished.

I guess the egg wouldn't be technically raw at that point, but neither would be a pasteurized egg.

francakenic's picture
francakenic

me gusta mucho la pagina

por cualquier consulta 

esalinas74@hotmail.com

yo quiero consultar porque un merengue tiende a crear una burbuja en el cake 

despues de varias horas de elaborado 

gracias

gmagmabaking2's picture
gmagmabaking2

The only thing I can think of is to polish off that puppy before the egg spoils!!! LOL... maybe it was a cold weather cake... and kept in the cooler when not served... wouldn't that work... to keep it in the refrigerator between servings?

varda's picture
varda

Hi,   It is not about the egg spoiling - it is the very small possibility that it may have salmonella in it.   Which is a very nasty thing and which has almost completely ended the practice of using raw eggs in food that is not then cooked.    So much so that I thought the recipe must be mistaken, but then I realized it was just from an earlier era.  -Varda

gerhard's picture
gerhard

You are right which is why a bunch cookie dough ice cream was recalled a couple of years ago, it was definitely stored at a safe temperature but the pathogens were already in the raw egg.

Gerhard

varda's picture
varda

Only found "egg food" no pasteurized actual eggs.   So I'll do the heating that Thomas suggested.   Thank you for your just in time advice!  -Varda

 

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

I hope it doesn't ruin the icing, as I'm really not sure what'll happen to it after being brought to that temperature.

 

varda's picture
varda

I hope not too.   I just read that you can pasteurize eggs yourself by putting them in 140F  water for 3 minutes.   Maybe that's better than cooking the icing.   -Varda

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

http://www.safeeggs.com/eggs/pasteurized-eggs

Can I pasteurize my own eggs at home?

No, sorry. This is a misconception. See more in our Egg Myths section.

And then they don't say why it's a myth! 

They point to this from the United States Department of Agriculture: http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Factsheets/Focus_On_Shell_Eggs/index.asp#12:

Can shell eggs be pasteurized?
Shell eggs can be pasteurized by a processor if FDA accepted the process for the destruction of Salmonella. Pasteurized shell eggs are now available at some grocery stores. Like all eggs, they must be kept refrigerated to retain quality. The equipment to pasteurize shell eggs isn't available for home use, and it is very difficult to pasteurize shell eggs at home without cooking the contents of the egg.

If I were to guess, I'd say the reason it's a myth is because people think the Salmonella is on the shell, when it's actually in the eggs itself. To kill Salmonella inside the egg, you'd have to either (a) raise the temperature so high that the egg cooks or (b) use this special patented "warm water bath" process that doesn't cook the egg but does kill the bacteria.

(Sounds like a protection racket to me. Tell them they need to buy it from us. Tell them they can't do it themselves!)

tn gabe's picture
tn gabe

Why would eating raw eggs be so wide spread across so many cultures if it is an innately dangerous activity? Did you ever get salmonella eating this cake as a child? I remember listening to a Spanish chef (Jose Garces maybe) talking about how his favorite dessert as a child was a fresh egg yolk mixed with a spoonful of sugar.

One could draw the conclusion that Salmonella is only a concern in an idustrially produced eggs.

I'd suggest not eating eggs that you aren't comfortable eating raw. We don't have any chickens right now, but still get fresh eggs from real people at the farmers market. I just had some raw egg may for lunch, as I probably do 5 times a week on sandwiches or in salad dressings.

Sorry if that was a rant!

varda's picture
varda

Too busy making cake to argue!  Maybe later.  :>)  -Varda

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Substitute 1-2  tbsp full fat (regular) good quality mayonaise for the egg

(Seems to me the egg is a little water,protein to fluff the icing and an emulcifier to bind the oil and moisture in the butter/sugar.Mayo may do the trick-NOT salad dressing)

OR

Break egg in a bowl and beat with 1 tsp lemon juice (it raises the temp at which it cooks a few degrees)

Then follow this person's suggestions (she just did it with the egg yolk)

http://www.halleethehomemaker.com/2010/01/how-to-pasteurize-an-egg/

Let me know how it turns out.

varda's picture
varda

I ended up heating the icing to 140-160 for a few minutes.   I was going for 148 but somehow it didn't heat, didn't heat, didn't heat, and then it was 160 at which point I turned off the stove.   The icing got very liquid and a bit grainy.   I stuck it in the freezer for awhile and then iced the cake.   Then put the cake in the refrigerator until tomorrow.    I have a feeling it will be just fine, but perhaps not as intended or as I remember it.    Next time I would try pasteurizing via the method clazar suggested.    Thanks for the help!  -Varda

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

At least it wasn't completely ruined.

I thought of another way, but dabrownman beat me to it, re: mixing egg and sugar in a pan set over simmering water until it slowly comes to the desired temperature and hold it at that temperature for the desired time. I use this method for making genoise, but sabayon is similar.

The problem with a lot a recipes that use raw egg is that they only specify temperature (for genoise, it's 135 F). That's fine for genoise batter because it eventually goes in a very hot oven (and if Salmonella survive 350 F for 20 minutes, they deserve to live), whereas your frosting does not. It'll be important to use time and temperature to kill the beasties if you use this method.

For your frosting, essentially:

  • Heat 2" water in a shallow, large diameter pan (I use a wok) to simmer (just below boiling).                        
  • Combine eggs and sugar in a metal bowl, place bowl over simmering water, and whisk mixture until temperature reaches 148 F for hold it at that temperature for 2 minutes. (Unless you feel like whisking at 126 F for 5 hours!)
  • Remove from simmering water and add melted chocolate.    

Incidentally, at 160 F, you would have killed all Salmonella in less than 7.1 seconds! A record! :D

varda's picture
varda

Now why couldn't I have just waited to make it until this evening?   -Varda

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

with these life threatening recipes (more times than one should) I always think Zabiaone (Sabayon to non Italians) and whisk the egg vigourously while in and bain-marie (for the Fench) until the 148 F temperature is met.  The egg will expand in volume tremendously, which will hwlp it heat rapidly, but it will still be, liquid, non grainy and nearly as perfect for your icing  as a raw egg would be.

I would make more to put booze, liquor, sugar, vanilla, cocoa, etc and really make that icing sing as loud as any loaf coming out the oven :-)

varda's picture
varda

Zabiaone, Bain-Marie.   I feel like I'm going to college or something.   But really, DA, that seems like a very practical way to do it.   Much more practical than what I did certainly.   Now why do you suppose this nice Passover cake is called Panama Torte?   Can't really wrap my head around it.  -Varda

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

torte was created to commemorate the Panama Canal.  The best guess is that it was created in a Budapest or Vienna (cloudy about which one) Jewish bakery.  The Panama Canal was all the rage like 'Men on the Moon' in 1969.  The canal was, by far, the largest, most costly engineering feat ever in history at the time.  The baker's customers liked this cake so much,  that Jews eventually added it to their Passover seder as a traditional after seder desert.  It was brought to America by Eastern European Jews and is now enjoyed by many Jews here at Passover since it was and is such a fine cake.  I'm sure yours is terrific.

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

The following is from "Culinary Reactions - The Everyday Chemistry of Cooking" by Simon Quellen Field, page 42:

"Eggs begin to coagulate at 160°F to 170°F (70°C to 77°C).
Not coincidentally, this is also the temperature needed to coagulate
the proteins in salmonella and other pathogens, thus killing
them. In order to cook the eggs well enough to kill bacteria, but
still prevent them from scrambling, you can use a well-known
trick from both chemistry and your mother’s cookbooks: add an
acid to the eggs.
Acids prevent some of the chemical bonds from forming
between the proteins until the temperature gets much higher,
closer to 195°F (90°C). So adding some lemon juice or vinegar
to the sauce will prevent the eggs from curdling, at least if you
keep the temperature well below boiling."

Though lemon juice in cake frosting isn't exactly what was ordered it does work for hollandaise sauce, bearnaise sauce and best of all it is the perfect solution for those of us who are confirmed Caesar Salad addicts...,

Wild-Yeast

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Sorry I'm late, I see you've already made your cake, but for the future - in any recipe that calls for raw eggs, such as your icing, "proper"tiramisu recipes and a multitude of other treats, chicken eggs can be replaced with quail eggs. Apparently quails are immune to salmonella and their eggs are completely salmonella-free. I once spent a whole day roaming the internet in attempts to confirm or disprove this, and everything I found seemed to suggest quail eggs are indeed safe to consume raw.

Most larger supermarkets would stock quail eggs. The substitution ratio is 3-4 quail eggs for 1 chicken egg (but you could weigh them just to be sure).

That said, I still prefer my tiramisu withot eggs :)

Hope this helps!

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

as an alternative, washing chicken eggs in hot soapy water may help. The most recent research by UK's Food Standards Agency found that any salmonella detected during their sample purchases of chicken eggs was found on the shells but never inside the egg. So whashing the shell prior to cracking the egg will eliminate any salmonella that may be there. I'm not sure to what extent this would apply to other countries though, particularly where farming regulations are less strict.

 

 

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

That runs contrary to what I understand about Salmonella re:poultry: that surface Salmonella from feces, etc. are not nearly as problematic as Salmonella from infected hens (i.e. Salmonella infects a hen's ovaries and, thus, infects their eggs).

Although egg shells are porous to bacteria (and there's plenty of bacteria to be found in nests (hen feces, etc.)), the primary source of infection is from infected hens.

Take quail eggs from your previous comment: I, too, don't know if they're "immune" to Salmonella, or even what that means: That they can't get sicked by it? That their immune systems defeat it? That it doesn't get into their ovaries? That Salmonella doesn't thrive in their digestive tracts and, thus, doesn't get deposited in the nests/cages (so feces from Salmonella can't get on the quail eggs)?

What I do know is that quail eggs, like other poultry eggs, are porous, and all it takes for a quail egg to get infected is for someone with a dirty hand to open a carton of quail eggs in the Asian grocery (that's where I find fresh quail eggs(and duck eggs)(and those hilarious gargantuan geese eggs)) and fondle the egg and deposit some bacteria that makes it ways through the porous egg to thrive.

Also, Salmonella isn't the only beastie to worry about with eggs (and food in general). There are Staphlococcus, Bacillus, Listeria, Clostridium, and the list goes on and on.

This is what an unwashed hand looks like after it touches a steril petri dish that's later incubated. Not all of the beasties there are harmful, but it certainly makes you want to stop eating altogether.

G-man's picture
G-man

Maybe it's because my mother is a microbiologist and I saw this sort of thing all the time while I was growing up, but why would this make me want to stop eating?

There's no such thing as true sterilization. Even the very best facilities will still let SOMETHING through if they don't subject you to processes that will kill you many times over, because the fact is some things are so much more hardy than even we are.

Freaking out about food being non-sterile is what lead us to the state we're in today, where we can't even stand to know our meat actually comes from Real Live Animals (gasp!).

This is a big stink about a non-issue.

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

Maybe we've gone overboard, but so would be saying that food borne illness is a "non-issue".

There's some recent evidence that the explosion of allergies (what some are calling an epidemic) is due to us going overboard re: cleanliness/sterility.

As someone who's experienced food poisoning on more than one occassion (I like hole-in-the-wall Chinatown restaurants), it is an issue, at least to me.

As a person who suffers tremendously from allergies, however, it makes me want to find the nearest pig pen and play around in the mud WITH THE PIGS.

 

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

I understand your caution, Thomas, but here's from the people who research salmonella for a living.

 

Q: I am wondering if it is possible for a chicken that is infected with Salmonella to lay eggs that are Salmonella-free? Or, If the Salmonella is on the outside of the egg, and not within the egg.

A: Yes this is possible. In fact, most eggs will be Salmonella free. Some people have estimated that only 1 in 1000 eggs (or less) will be contaminated with Salmonella. however it varies by chicken, Salmonella type, and lots of other factors that we don't understand.

In general, most of the Salmonella are on the outside of the egg, but one type of Salmonella (Salmonella enterica servoar Enteritidis, aka Salmonella enteritidis) is especially good at getting inside the egg and waiting there. This is why eggs should be stored in the refigerator, it slows down the degredation of the egg and growth of the bacteria

 

http://salmonella.org/faq.html#q2

PastryPaul's picture
PastryPaul

Eggs have gotten a bad rap. First it was the "don't eat more than 2 eggs a week or else the cholesterol will harden your arteries and kill you," now it's the salmonella thing. The first one has been disproved, the second, though true, has been blown out of proportion.

The worst estimate for salmonella-infected eggs is 1 in 10,000, whereas it is estimated that 1 in 7 raw chickens is infected. Nobody screams about avoiding or even washing chicken, but you hear that eggs are dangerous everywhere! BTW: Salmonella, when present is usually on the shell. Funny thing though, until a commercially viable method of pasteurizing and packaging eggs was available, we heard diddly about the "dangers."

In a commercial environment using hundreds of eggs a day, it is probable to meet an infected egg once a month. At home? I don't worry about it.

Another thing, salmonella is not a fun thing, but it isn't all that nasty either (it ain't e.coli). The most common symptoms are diahrea, headache, and vomitting.

Unless anyone at home is very young, very elderly or immuno-compromised, I, personally, wouldn't worry about it.

Look into it yourself and decide.

G-man's picture
G-man

This is old hat in marketing, corporations (especially agri-business) absolutely excel at creating problems that they just happen to have the products to solve. 

Be afraid of real food.

gerhard's picture
gerhard

Nobody advocates eating raw chicken meat so your point of salmonella in meat being more prevalent than in eggs is irrelevant.  If the practice of eating raw egg product became more common 1 in 10,000 would be huge, if everyone in the U.S. ate two eggs a week that would be 60,000 to 70,000 cases of food poisoning from eggs a week.

Gerhard

Heidela123's picture
Heidela123

I have been eating raw eggs in various forms that I just felt compelled to offer a post

There are many pastry toppings and fillings you can do with raw and nearly raw eggs that are o sumptuous ...that if you love things like fresh cheeses made with raw milk, or tartar ...sushi..some flavors are lost to pasteurization ..and for many people raw is just not worth it.

My rules are pretty basic, I am a mid to high risk eater but as I get older I do not take as many risks.
1. Fresh eggs that from the bird to your plate are treated with impeccable. Read the cooperative extenstion websites learn what can compromise eggs and avoid those that have that risk.
2.i ill not serve raw eggs or things made with to small children, immune compromised, elders or pregnant women. Everyone else ...I wouldn't serve anyone food I though would make them sick. Hope this helps somehow.

I lived in Panama for years I have to pull my old Panamainian cookbooks out to see if I had this recipe
Due to history
Lots of French and German influence In baking I learned there