The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Rising and Rising again, but why?

dvirkk's picture
dvirkk

Rising and Rising again, but why?

Hey,

I'm a baking layman, so forgive me if this is a silly question.

All of the bread recipes I've seen so far call for (1st)rising after kneading, then taking most of the air out, shaping and then (2nd)rising.

From my little experience, the yeast work for a while, and then they either run out of food, or just get plain tired and slow down. 

So why are we challenging the yeast to work such long hours? Un-puffing what they have so beautifully managed to do in the first rise? What would be wrong with kneading-rising-baking? Why are we taking the air out of the dough, just to re-do it?

Now, I do understand that there is the whole time=flavour issue. But then it would make sence to either let the dough preferment or autolyse for a while...

Please, if anyone can just enlight me on this... I am sure I am missing something here.

Thanks, D

Frosty's picture
Frosty

I agree.  I never punch down.  During shaping and during folds some gas escapes, but in my experience it's the way to go.  If you were making something like sandwich bread where you want fairly dense and uniform holes, I would puch down and more evenly distribute the bubbles, but I prefer large irregular holes.

And, naturally, I, too, might be missing something but I've generally been pleased with how my rustic loaves have turned out.  

Frosty

lazybaker's picture
lazybaker

So why are we challenging the yeast to work such long hours? Un-puffing what they have so beautifully managed to do in the first rise? What would be wrong with kneading-rising-baking? Why are we taking the air out of the dough, just to re-do it?

Now, I do understand that there is the whole time=flavour issue. But then it would make sence to either let the dough preferment or autolyse for a while...


I noticed I get better texture with breads that went through a total of three rises. It came by accident. The dough bulk ferments. Punch down and re-knead a bit. Bulk ferment again. Punch down. Then shape. Rise. The bread texture comes out fluffier.

I made bread that gone through one rising in the past. The texture was dense and gummy. I wouldn't recommend it! I think it's reviving the gluten strands and re-distributing the yeast help to make the bread have a better texture.

 

dvirkk's picture
dvirkk

Now that's intersting, you have just confused me even more :)

How did you schedule those 3 rises? Each time until the dough doubles? Or according to the clock?

The main thing is - I am afraid the yeast will run out of food and energy... as far as I understand the 

second (and third) rise is always slower and less powerfull, isn't it?

lazybaker's picture
lazybaker


The weather was slightly warm. Whenever the dough was almost doubled in size, I punched it down and tucked the dough into a ball again and let it rise. I didn't check the time. 

I didn't worry about the yeast dying out because I put a small amount, like half the amount. But yes, if a lot of yeast was used, then proofing too long will not be good.

 

spsq's picture
spsq

I'm no expert, and I'd definitely love to have some experts weigh in on this.

I DO know that gluten strength is built over time.  In "batter bread" recipes (single rise), or breads that I rush through (kneading, warm risings), the breads tend to be crumbly and fall apart.  The more I knead or stretch and fold, and the more time it takes, the stronger the bread is. 

And frankly, it tastes better.  (Closer to a loaf from a "real" bakery, whereas the quick breads taste more like, well, quick breads!)

 

 

dvirkk's picture
dvirkk

We can built great gluten by kneading for a long time, that's fine.

What I am trying to figure out is the meaning of punching/flattening the whole thing after it rose and then asking the yeast to make the whole thing rise again. And according to lazybaker, it's even better to do this twice :)

Even if you think about it from a gluten point of view (in addition to my tired yeast thought from the firs post) - even if we gently flatten the dough. Gas coming out of the dough means that we are blowing up and distroying the gluten pockets of gas, tearing up the gluten...

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

for degassing and a second/third rise:

1. The act of degassing brings the yeast into contact with new food supplies.  Note that they don't get "tired".  They can consume all of the available food supplies in their immediate vicinity, though.

2. The act of degassing can bring further organization and strength to the gluten network if the dough is reshaped in a way that aligns the gluten strands in controlled directions.  Examples: shaping a loaf to achieve a good gluten sheath or letter folds during a series of stretch-and-folds. 

3. Also during degassing, larger bubbles are either expelled or squished into smaller bubbles, leading to a more even crumb texture.

4. Degassing evens the temperature of the dough mass by bringing the cooler exterior into closer contact with the warmer interior, which facilitates more even fermentation.

Those are some that come to mind.

Paul

dvirkk's picture
dvirkk

Thanks for the explanation, it does make dough logic.

On a practical level, after degassing I should expect the dough to rise to the same level of puffiness as it was before degassing?

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

In addition to Paul's comments I would add the number one reason for the multiple rise technique is flavor.  Time equals flavor in the world of fermenting dough and in order to wind up with a dough that will bake and perform as you want it to, it needs to be manipulated over the course of the fermentation.  This is a great simplification but it is the heart of the matter.

Jeff

nhtom's picture
nhtom

Or, you could make a 2 loaf batch. 

Let one loaf rise once and the other rise twice and see what difference it makes.

Then you can tell us about it.

Grenage's picture
Grenage

You can get a lot of mileage out of the yeast, fear not for their workload.  When using baker's yeast, I beat the hell out of the dough when degassing - and I do it at least twice; I'll generally go for a third if time allows for it.  I tend to be a bit more gentle with wholemeal bread.