The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Why own a machine to mix bread dough?

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BoyntonStu's picture
BoyntonStu

Why own a machine to mix bread dough?

I prepare no-knead bread dough in a large glass bowl.

I mix for less than 2 minutes using a SS flat blade butter knife.

After 12-18 hours the gluten is fully formed.

Next, I shape the loaf using my adjustable no-stick pan on a Teflon baking sheet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmU3Uflp5K8

The dough never touches the countertop and little if any flour gets on it.

Cleanup consists of washing the butter knife, the bowl, and the Teflon sheet.

Minimum labor, mess, and fuss.

Are there any doughs that cannot be made using the no-knead method?

IOW If you have 12-18 hours, why own a machine to mix the dough?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

G-man's picture
G-man

I don't think it would be ideal for quickbreads! I make banana bread when we get some bananas that are close to spoiling and won't get eaten. Without a mixer, those bananas would probably just go to waste.

If you have 12-18 hours or longer, the no knead method is nice. It allows for a great deal of flavor development. That said, personally, I will make bread on the fly occasionally. Typically this is when we have guests that we've invited for dinner earlier in the day. I don't do that sort of thing in a small way, so generally I'm quite busy with preparations. It's nice to have a mixer around to take care of kneading yeast rolls while I'm doing whatever else it is I'm doing.

 

BoyntonStu's picture
BoyntonStu

A suggestion for on the fly baking for guests; frozen yeast roll dough.

 

Enjoy!

BoyntonStu's picture
BoyntonStu

Ooops, doops!

BettyR's picture
BettyR

You can't make a soft, fluffy sandwich loaf, kolaches, babka, cinnamon rolls, hamburger or hot dog buns using the no-knead method.

I use a bread machine to knead my dough first because I make all our breads and second because I'm lazy. I'd much rather toss all my ingredients into the machine and let it do all the work...all I have to do then is shape and bake.

subfuscpersona's picture
subfuscpersona

if possible, give make and model. Capacity (in dough weight, if possible) would be a plus. Approximate date purchased would also be helpful. Anything else you'd like to add would be super helpful.

Thanks! Looking forward to your response - SF

BettyR's picture
BettyR

Emerilware by T-Fal Emerilware 3-PoundBread & Baguette Maker

Purchased in December of 2008 - $149.00

It had double paddles which I love!!! I've worn out about 3 bread machines since I started using them to knead my dough when I got one as a Christmas present in 1990. This one is by far may favorite. I have never baked in it so I can't say that it does a good job there but as for kneading and rising bread dough it's wonderful.

BoyntonStu's picture
BoyntonStu

What is required for  Soft and Fluffy?

What happens t the S&F when using no-kned?

If you are lazy, is there effort in moving and cleaning a machine?

What kind of load pans do you use?

 

BettyR's picture
BettyR

You need fat, milk, sugar and sometimes eggs to get soft and fluffy. No knead wouldn't develop the gluten structure that you need and your ingredients would be in danger of growing harmful bacteria if left sitting on the counter for that length of time.

I don't move the machine, I have a butcher block cabinet that the machine sits on parked near an outlet that it stays plugged into.

Cleaning consists of rinsing the non-stick bread pan and paddles out with hot tap water and wiping it down with a paper towel.

I don't use a bread pan.

HONEY WHEAT BREAD

suave's picture
suave

That's not necessarily true - as far as I know the no knead method was first mentioned in print in 1945 and recipe they used had milk, fat and eggs in it.   Of course it did not rise for 12 hours, but it really did not need to.

BettyR's picture
BettyR

I have a recipe for a batter bread that you put together and beat with the paddle attachment of your mixer. You then pour the batter into a casserole, let it rise and bake it but I fail to see how simply stirring the ingredients together and leaving it to sit on the counter for several hours is going to make anything but a mess.

G-man's picture
G-man

A lesson I learned from the time we had this sort of discussion before is that, no matter what, some folks will always believe that a dairy product left out for a while is lethal poison and others will be perfectly happy to eat what those others turn up their noses at.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that this argument can continue until everyone gets tired of it, or we could agree to disagree and move on.

BettyR's picture
BettyR

It has nothing to do with leaving milk sitting out and everything to do with putting ingredients for a loaf of sandwich bread together and then just leaving it to sit without developing the gluten and expecting to get a proper loaf of bread out of it. I don't think it's going to happen....if by chance I'm wrong I would really like to have someone explain it to me because I would be very interested in it.

G-man's picture
G-man

It works because of what we call it. Autolysis is the term for enzymes breaking down the cell that produced/contained them. That's pretty much what happens during an autolyze step: water is being absorbed by the flour which sets the proteins to form into gluten bonds, and it activates enzymes that are breaking down said proteins, which makes them more extensible, giving you more rise and a resultingly fluffier crumb.

No-knead is just an autolyze step that isn't followed by kneading. It works because the yeast takes care of the kneading for you. The gas bubbles they produce moves the flour around enough (because it's happening throughout the dough) that the gluten forms. You can see this happen in sourdough starters after every feeding: once stirred, they're generally left alone, and they still form gluten. Of course, it takes the yeast a long time to do this much work.

That's the science behind it, in brief.

suave's picture
suave

That sounds like a variation of Beatrice Ojakangas recipe, she has an entire book full of those, but the one I'm talking about calls for a bowl and a wooden spoon, and ends with a dough that can be shaped into a loaf, just like regular dough.

BettyR's picture
BettyR

So you are in fact developing the gluten by beating it with a wooden spoon rather than a mixer?

BoyntonStu's picture
BoyntonStu

That Honey Wheat Bread is breathtakenly beautiful!

Too nice to slice. lol

stU

BettyR's picture
BettyR

Thank you....:-)

suave's picture
suave

No knead approach lends itself exceptionally well to a particular subset of breads based on yeasted wet lean doughs, and not all breads are yeasted, lean and require 75-80% hydrations, in fact most of them aren't.   It really comes down to the question "Why do you bake?".  If you bake to get food on your table, NK is a fine approach, but quite a few people bake for fun - they are interested in principles, and traditions, and history, and skills of breadmaking and once you go in that direction you need to knead your dough.  It doesn't have to be a machine, hands work fine but you can't get away with just a knife and a teflon sheet.

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

Stu, nearly every one of your posts in the past few days has been flogging your adjustable pan concept.  It is certainly your prerogative as to how you develop and market your ideas.

May I suggest an alternate approach, though, for your next invention, whatever that may be?  Take time to study the market; learn what the real needs are.  Then come up with something that addresses those needs.  It's a lot more effective than trying to create a market for a product that doesn't address a felt need.  Take, for example, the Brod & Taylor proofer.  The developers recognized that home bakers needed a way to maintain a temperature-controlled environment for their fermenting dough.  They came up with a concept for a home proofer.  Then they tested that concept by polling home bakers about what they would like or dislike about the concept.  I remember being rather critical in my comments about their initial offering.  Then they went back to the drawing board and made some modifications that incorporated the best suggestions they received from their respondents.  Today, I'm the happy owner of a B&T proofer, which is something that I really didn't expect.  However, it is a product that eliminates a problem that I routinely faced during the colder parts of the year, so it is very useful to me.

Frankly, I don't mind the "mess" of bread-making.  Quite the contrary; I enjoy getting into the dough.  If that costs me a bit of time for cleaning up, so be it.  And I presently own a large array of pans, so an adjustable version has no appeal for me.

If your drive is to be an inventor first, last, and always, then keep doing things the way you are.  If you want to create commercially successful products, then put the researcher hat on first and switch to your inventor hat later in the process.

Paul

BoyntonStu's picture
BoyntonStu

I love to bake yeast breads.

I enjoy seeing others enjoy eating my loafs.

I ran into a problem with forming and  depaning loafs.

The video shows my first use of my invention that completley solved the problem.

I do not care if anyone copies it, or if it will sell commercially.

If enough interest is shown, I 'might' consider production.

I learned many years ago when starting a very successful business, that even though none of my friends or acquaintances  thought that the idea would sell, they were wrong.

We advertised in a national magazine and we were extremely successful.

FYI I also invented and trade-marked "Squagels", a square bagel.

"For a square meal eat a Squagel".

They won't roll off your table".

"We don't cut corners". etc.

We had a lot of fun, and when a large company made us an offer that we could not refuse, we sold Squagels for quite a lot of 'dough'.

I appreciate you advice, and I know that it was well meant.

For a really important, life and property saving invention, watch my video here:

Larry David beats his smoke detector to death with a bat. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP21wqv0ia0

Warmest regards,


stU


 

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nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

or at least leads to abysmally different results. For example: all those rich doughs full of sugar and fats such as panettone, pandoro or simply brioche require a *VERY* long kneading time (even more than an hour at speed 3, depending on the strength of the flour and on the amount of gluten inhibitors). If you use a no-knead approach you won't get very far and if you use a slap-and-fold method you seriously risk to break a shoulder or two!

Another good example is durum wheat bread: when prepared with a very extensive mix -until the dough becomes very extensible without breaking- the dough won't tear during the proofing stage, while if you use the NK method ... you will seee cracks and tears all over the surface and the bread will collapse.

Especially when using weak flours (that I understand to be very uncommon in North America, lucky you!) the mixer is the only means to develop enough gluten, and gluten is everything.

BoyntonStu's picture
BoyntonStu

What you seem to be saying is that if you look hard enough, you can discover rich breads full of sugar and fats that require machine kneading for a *VERY* long time.

Should I crave those Diabetic inducing,  heart clogging breads, I will consider buying them.

Or, if I REALLY wanted to bake them, I will buy a *VERY* powerful machine.

Until then, my bread glutens need no-knead.

stU

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Nico was only pointing out that sometimes kneading is indeed necessary.

The no-knead method can and does work but is more suitable with the right conditions like, long fermentation and wetter dough. Making lean breads with stronger flour, abundant in the US and Canada will allow for the use of this method.

Fermentation = degradation. As a rule stronger flour can handle more fermentation. Perhaps you should challenge yourself to make good bread from weak flour...!

Suggesting breads like Panettone or Pandoro are unhealthy is act of ignorance. Generally speaking there are no unhealthy foods. Only too much of something is bad for you. Even water can kill if you drink too much of it!

Making naturally leavened Panettone and related breads are an art-form and to me, are the pinnacle of bread baking as it requires you to understand every aspect of dough rheology and natural fermentation.

Please understand there is world outside the one you're living in.

Michael

BoyntonStu's picture
BoyntonStu

Michael,

I showed my ignornce about Panettone when I read high in sugar and fat, etc.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

I agree:  Suggesting breads like Panettone or Pandoro are unhealthy is act of ignorance. Generally speaking there are no unhealthy foods. Only too much of something is bad for you. Even water can kill if you drink too much of it!

That has occured.

Perhaps this is a solution?

http://www.tastespotting.com/detail/51962/No-Knead-Panettone


 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

I appreciate your acceptance.

Interesting link however this would be nothing like the real thing.

Good to converse with you.

Michael

BoyntonStu's picture
BoyntonStu

Michael,

 

Thanks again, I would rather unlearn something that was incorrect in my mind, than learn something new.

If you don't think that my take on life is different than most, might I suggest "How to Cook Steak With a Hair Drier"

Sous (stU) Vide Simple - Cook Steak with a Hair Dryer - Narrated

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToneZn4Lhyc

 

 

 

 

 

Bee18's picture
Bee18

I tried the no knead formula and was not impressed by the result. nice simple bread nothing more. I'm a rye and wholemeal flours as well as sourdough maker. When a load reach 4kg I cannot mix it by hand, even 1/2 of it is a bit hard, especially when you began to have old wrists and fingers with arthritis. I even bought lately a planetary mixer of 10L or 10 quarts as you say in the US. in less than  10 minutes my (wet or dry) dough is ready. It is so good that I wonder how I waited 2 years to move from my Kenwood chef to this. Here in Australia we cannot find the real Hobart or the Electrolux or the Bosch. In shop specialized in kitchen equipment I found what I was looking for: an ANVIL (S.A.  made in China !) for only $1000, but I discover that I could have find it for 150$ less on line !

Again it depend of what you want to achieve. Not all hand make bread have sugar milk and eggs in it, most of the french don't ! the use of a mixer is not about the ingredients you put in but about the quantity you want to knead. The cleaning is not so bad. But may be women look at the mess in a different way than men... You should try to expand your experience with other breads than the noknead you might discover something that you don't know about bread. BTW healthy bread is not made of unbleached bread flower.... but wholemeal, rye, oats, etc.. etc.... Happy future baking !

Bee18's picture
Bee18

I meant flour not flower of course ! B.