The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Rye and Rye (Borodinsky and Tzitzel)

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varda's picture
varda

Rye and Rye (Borodinsky and Tzitzel)

 

Tzitzel is to Borodinsky as Comfort Zone is to Total Lack of Comfort Zone.   But still, it's out there.   It has a cool name.   I like rye.   So why not.  I followed Andy's Borodinsky formula here as much as possible given different flours and malt.    To make myself feel more comfortable I made Tzitzel at the same time.   In making what is for me a very complex formula,  I felt similar to how I felt the first time I made Hamelman's Pain Au Levain - over my head.   Yesterday when I was making the rye sour for Tzitzel, a different rye sour for Borodinsky and my first time ever scald, I got everything built and put together.  Then I happened to glance at Andy's formula and realized that I had misread the amount of rye sour, by looking at the result of his first build instead of his second.  This necessitated a lengthy interaction with my spreadsheet, while I tried to figure out how to make the necessary adjustments.   Bottom line was I had enough sour for only 40% of the scald.   I'm glad I caught it in time before I mixed more than twice as much scald as required in with the sour.    I thought that I would be able to mix the scald and sour together last night to make the sponge before I went to bed, but I was waiting for the rye sour to froth - see Juergen's excellent picture here.   I know from having made Russian Rye that if you don't wait for the froth, you might as well just use the result for its cementatious properties, instead of wasting the energy to bake it.   So I let it go overnight, and then mixed the sour and scald in the morning.    Since I had a fairly small quantity of paste (this stuff is not dough)  relative to the pan, the result after baking for over an hour looked like a brick, and of course nothing like Andy's beautiful samples.   However, it did not taste like a brick.   To go back to my years of absorbing ad copy through the ether, I would say that this bread is BURSTING WITH FLAVOR (Juicy Fruit Gum - circa 1967).   No really, absolutely bursting with flavor.   I would hope to be able to make more photogenic loaves as time goes on, but for now, I'll be consoled by the taste.  I ate a piece of this with peanut butter for dinner.   Nothing else required. 

Crumb shots:   Tzitzel and Borodinsky

Tzitzel Rye Sour just before mixing the dough:

Borodinsky sponge just before mixing:

I used whole rye for the Borodinsky and for the small amount of wheat flour used Sir Lancelot high gluten because I ran out of KA Bread Flour while mixing up the Tzitzel.    I used malt syrup to replace Red Malt - best I could do for now.  I followed ITJB Old School Jewish Deli Rye as modified for Tzitzel (page 74.)  

Comments

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

all in 1 bake - if you ignore the other breads that are my favorites to. Your Tzitzel looks better than Prazel's in the crum.especially.  The Borodinsky will taste even better toasted with a smear and lox I'm guessing!  Nice bake varda, photos and write up arr nice too.  Did you post your Tzitzel recipe?

varda's picture
varda

Mr. Brownman,  I thought you were from Arizona.   Have you been to the Pratzel's of old?   (Current version having been bought by Eastgate Bakery is a different story entirely.)   I am using the Inside the Jewish Bakery version of Tzitzel unmodified, and haven't posted it as I don't feel ok about listing published recipes.   I did a mix of wheat flour for this bake because I ran out of KABF in the middle.   I used 192g KABF, 210g KAAP, and 78g Sir Lancelot.  That is totally random, but I might do it on purpose next time, as I think crumbwise this is my best yet.   The bloom was a bit unruly but that was probably a proofing error.    I had the Borodinsky with a schmear (sp?) this morning, but alas no lox.     Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Varda,

Love the photos!

These 2 loaves look great.  The Tzitzel has become one of my favorites to bake.  I love the aroma and it is a really easy recipe to throw together.  Yours look delicious.

Your Borodinsky looks wonderful too.  I have made that one a few times using Pip's modifications and the people I give rye breads to love it.  I ruined one bake by filling my Pullman too full.  Loaf was huge and the middle of the loaf didn't bake despite the fact that the therm. read 200°....Found out after the fact that larger loaves can't be judged by temp.  alone.....I like the height of yours and now I want to bake another one as it is a fun one to do too :-)

So much temptation here.....  

Take Care,

Janet

varda's picture
varda

I will have to go take a look at PiP's modifications to see what they are.   It is great that you have people to give rye to.   I hacked off a chunk of one of the Tzitzel loaves and gave it to a woman who was over - she didn't know what rye was, and didn't think she had ever tasted it but liked the smell when it was baking.   With the Borodinsky, I took it out of the pan after 45 minutes, then an hour, then and hour and 15 minutes, and thunked the bottom waiting for a hollow sound (I fried my probe thermometer and haven't replaced it yet) but never got it.    Since I didn't want to incinerate the thing, I finally quit.   And think that it was baked for long enough.   So different rules apply I guess.   I have to look over the mods Andy suggested in his comment below as well.   Thanks so much for your kind words.   I was very happy with the picture of the Tzitzel in front of the Japanese maple, and wish I could get an effect like that on purpose.  -Varda

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Varda,

The Borodinsky looks great considering there was insufficient paste for the pan.

For years I've been searching for tall and narrow bread pans to make rye loaves that look really good.   Most bread pans are too wide and not tall enough to flatter this type of bread anyway.

Whatever, you were absolutely right to make the smaller quantity of paste once you'd noted the error.   It would not have worked at all with reduced sour in the formula.

For next time try the following modification for baking:

Pre-heat your oven as hot as you can...mine goes to 280*C.   Use the fan setting and load your bread with the lid on the pan and use steam.   Immediately turn the heat down to 120*C and bake for 4 hours.   Check there is still a steady supply of steam, and then drop the heat down to 100*C and bake out a further 2 to 10 hours.   The long slow bake in the covered pan is a dream...the bread basically cooks in its own steam.   The initial heat blast gives the paste a quick boost, and it just helps to give more stability in the early stages of baking.

Very best wishes

Andy

varda's picture
varda

Six to 14 hours of baking?   Wow.   I don't have a convection oven, so can't do that part, but the rest yes.   I didn't use steam at all this time since the pan was covered  so I didn't think it would make a difference.   I guess I should have.  Instead I misted the loaf prior to putting it in the oven.  I will have to search for a skinnier pan, as I really don't have the demand for rye around here to justify larger loaves.    Thanks so much for your comments and suggestions.  -Varda

 

pjaj's picture
pjaj

Hi Andy,

Great to have met you yesterday.

I presume you have seen the Silverline range of bread pans ? Some of these look pretty long and narrow.

They will also make short runs of pans to order, but I don't know how much they would cost.

Regards,

Peter

 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Peter,

Many thanks for posting the link.   Actually, I'm looking for pans where the height is greater than, or equal to the width; not at all easy to find.

Very good to meet up with you at UK TFL; keep in touch

Best wishes

Andy

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Nothing else to say!

Juergen

varda's picture
varda

definitely carries.   Thanks for your comments.  Varda

louie brown's picture
louie brown

I admire your will for attacking these challenging breads, and I love the Juicy Fruit reference, although i think at this point I'd prefer your bread to the gum for my flavor burst. I'll bet they really are bursting with flavor. You've brought me one step closer to this realm.

varda's picture
varda

but it is different.   When I first read through Andy's formulas, it just seemed like too much.   What do you mean, scald, sponge, rye sour, etc.   I have done some of the intermediate pieces and have gotten more comfortable with rye sour.   It keeps very well in the refrigerator, and gives results that are much better than converting over a wheat starter for a given formula on the fly which is what I used to do.   But I think a lot of it is acclimation.  Andy published this formula in September and it has taken until now for me to take my first stab at it.  Hope you try it because this type of bread is just so delicious.  And yes, I love the old ads and jingles, if not the products.   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

Syd's picture
Syd

A cool name indeed Varda.  At first glance I thought it was a vulgarism. Just the sort of word my kids would giggle over.  Anyway, I think it cool that you just baked a bread whose name I had never heard of before. And as for that Borowhatever ... well, I thought those loaves were only reserved for  baker deities.  I am very impressed.

Nice baking,

Syd

varda's picture
varda

thing about this site, is that when baker deities do share their formulas and approaches, we can all take a stab at it.   My family is originally from Ukraine, and I wonder if this is the type of bread they might have eaten.   As for Tzitzel, I have seen Cissel used for a different type of rye bread, and my searches into the origin of the name/bread are going nowhere, so my latest guess is that the late Mr. Pratzel made it up - probably to amuse the children.    Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

kozulich's picture
kozulich

My experience in Ukraine would lead me to believe several things:

In the old days, Ukrainians were masterful bread bakers

In modern times, the quality of daily bread for the masses has tended toward a communist inspired mean - bland, grey, heavy and utilitarian

The most common bread for the peasants was mixed wheat/rye sourdoughs from stone ground whole grain flours.  They are substantial, robust, nutritious (they supply complete proteins in an otherwise normally low protein diet), and keep well without refrigeration.  Such breads are still favored, especially in the countryside.  Example recipes would be similar to the Czech and Polish ryes from Leader's "Local Breads".  White breads were reserved for special ocassions and holy days.

varda's picture
varda

that the more healthy bread was for daily use unlike today, at least in the US, where empty white bread abounds.   Not sure what the "bland, grey, heavy and utilitarian" bread you mention is made of, but it sounds like it would be more fun to eat cardboard.  I have never seen Local Breads, but now will take a look since I am interested in learning about the breads you mention.   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

kozulich's picture
kozulich

I'm not sure what its made of either.  Its certainly more robust than our "wonder" bread, and judging by the color, texture and taste, I suspect it has some rye in it.  It totally lacks the glorious rich brown chewy/crunchy crust we've come to expect from artisanal rye breads, is more or less brick shaped, and I suspect, goes through a very quick fermentation period, all of which contribute to its bland, utilitarian nature.  Anyway, that's the mass produced stuff available in the cities.  Country folk still know how to make good bread.

Regarding the nutritional aspects of everyday bread; from the standpoint of modern America, the old saying "Bread is the staff of life" makes absolutely no sense.  Our empty white bread could no more sustain healthy life than twinkies could.  But authentic country breads, on the other hand, were quite capable of sustaining the life of the hard working peasant.  It was cheap, you could get more caloric content from a field of wheat than just about anything else on the same amount of land (barring potatoes), it's rich with nutritional goodies if you use the whole grain, and the grain berries will keep practically forever as long as they aren't milled and the mice/rats don't get to it.  In rural Ukraine today, just as in times past, bread is eaten with practically every meal.  It only makes sense, for people on a subsistence-type diet, who labor manually in the field all day, to gravitate to a food which is healthy, satisfying, hearty, and (relatively) easy to produce on a small-holder's limited land.

varda's picture
varda

had/have the benefit of not having a food industry that's emptying out the food and so sucking the life out of them.  -Varda

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Varda, don't worry about the look of the bread. When playing with the dark side you have to come to terms with the trickiness of the flour. Beauty will come practising more often :-)  and in any case the tzitzel looks nice!

With all the bricks that i bake I should be a mason by now :))

 

varda's picture
varda

That makes me feel better.  I'll join you in the brickyard.  Thanks so much for checking in.  -Varda

PiPs's picture
PiPs

My Goodness Varda,

You are well and truly on the dark side now. FANTASTIC!

What theses kinds of dark rye  breads lack in visual aesthetics they more than make up for in amazing flavour. Your borodinsky looks great. I love the crust colour you achieved. Half the battle when trying to photograph them is getting a clean slice for a crumb shot don't you think? ... they get easier after a few days.

I altered my boroinsky formula from Andy's because of the freshly milled rye I am using. It ferments very, very quickly!

oh .. and your Tzitzel looks great as well ... sorry still so excited you made a borodinsky.

Cheers,
Phil 

 

varda's picture
varda

Hi Phil,   Those of us who can't wait get a bit of a gummy crumb shot.  The Borodinsky filled up the house with the most amazing aroma and there was no way I was going to wait until the next day to cut into it.   I let it thoroughly cool and then cut it, photographed it, ate it.   So sue me.   Thanks so much for the enthusiastic welcome to the dark side.   You got there a lot faster than I did.   Now, I have to find more rye eaters closer to home.   I guess the next step for me is to source rye malt, or at least red malt.   I went back and looked over your borodinsky post, and see that you were able to do so.   I can hardly imagine it tasting better though.   Yum.   And thanks for your comments on the Tzitzel.   Of course, not as exciting at this point.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Varda,

I made my own rye malt by simply sprouting rye berries and then drying them out in the oven with the heat pretty low so as not to burn it.  When it was good and dry I did turn up the heat to turn it into non-diastatic malt.....the higher heat kills the enzymes...

After it is was all dry I simply ginded it up in my coffee grinder.

If you have a 'health' food store near by you might be able to buy a small bag of whole rye berries if they have a bulk section.  If they don't but do have a seed sprouting section - sometimes there will be rye berries in that area too but at a very high price!

Good Luck,

Janet

varda's picture
varda

Janet,  Thanks for the tip.   I will see if I can find some rye berries.   -Varda

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

time I was in Pratzel's was over 26 years ago when I was meeting my wife's family for the first time in Olivette at Thanksgiving.   I had not met anyone and my future MIL was having sit down Thanksgiving dinner for 67 adults the next day.  Family member flew in from all over the country every year for this tradition.  The First thing my MIL said to me was 'DA I need you to got to Prazel's and get the Challah. Tzitzel, bagels, lox and cream cheese.  So I did.  We married the following August and immediately moved to AZ.  We visited often and every time there after it was my chore to do Pratzel's.  I love your bread and I am reminded of so many good bakeries, that we don't have in AZ.

Some day I to will make a decent Tzitzel.  But today I made a David Snyder Pegliese Capriccioso where I subbed 50 g each of rye and WW for some of the White AP.  My daughter in hme from college to celebrate my wife's and my birthdays that are 2 weeks apart.  I got the lox out of the freezer to have with the bread and cream cheese.  It's not Tzitzel but it is the best we are going to do tomorrow :-)

varda's picture
varda

You remember Pratzel's Tzitzel from a later era than me.  I moved out of St. Louis over 30 years ago.    Your Pugliese...   is beautiful and perfect for celebrations.   -Varda

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hello Varda,
Admiring your rye breads, Borodinsky and Tzitzel!
I like kozulich's description above and think it is a wonderful description of your Borodinsky:
"...the glorious rich brown chewy/crunchy crust we've come to expect from artisanal rye breads..."
I bet the aroma and flavor were outstanding.
:^) from breadsong

varda's picture
varda

Breadsong,   Thank you so much.  I had actually been planning to send one of the Tzitzels to a friend who is ill, but didn't feel it was quite pretty enough for the task.   Darn, we had to eat it ourselves.   So now I have another one starting on my counter.   I hope it opens properly this time.   This will be my first time sending bread.  -Varda