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Help making the No Knead Pizza on Fibrement stone

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Bread Head's picture
Bread Head

Help making the No Knead Pizza on Fibrement stone

I am getting stuck at some parts of this process so here are some questions;

-Ingredients

400grams Organic King Aurthur Flour

320grams of cool water (55 to 65 degrees)

1 1/4 teaspoon of Iodine Sea Salt

1/4 teaspoon of SAF dry yeast

1/2 teaspoon organic florida cane sugar

2 tablespoons of olive oil

 

Let ferment for 18 to 20 hours

After I dump out and cut dough in half I am not sure how to shape into balls because the dough is so sticky?

After I get two shaped balls (with a lot of flour and I don't know what technique) then what?

Should I place in the refridgerator? This time I am letting the two dough balls rise on the counter for 2 hours and then I will refrigerate for a day or days.

When I pull a dough ball out of the refrigerator to make a pizza, should I let it sit for 1 to 2 hour to warm up or should I work it into a pie shape while it is cold?

Where should the placement of the fibrement stone be?  Top, middle, or bottom?  (I like the idea of the top because of less head room)

Thanks for your help!

 

wassisname's picture
wassisname

Bread Head, I use a similar method for pizza so I’ll take a stab…

Last question first – put the stone on the lowest rack, assuming your heating element is at the bottom of the oven.  You wanna get that thing as hot as you possibly can.

As for the dough, after the 18-20 hours (in the fridge, right?) I shape it into balls using as much flour as I need to keep it from sticking.  Just try to keep the flour on the outside of the ball and you’ll be fine.  If the dough is super, super sticky maybe use a little less water next time and see how it works.  I’ve never tried putting the dough back in the fridge at this point because I only make pizza one night a week, but I suppose you could.  If I was going to re-refrigerate I wouldn’t let the dough rise at room temp at all at this point, just shape the balls and put them right back into the refrigerator.

Next, I let the dough balls sit at room temp (seam side down, floured and covered lightly with plastic wrap) for about 45 minutes to an hour while the oven preheats.  This gives the dough a final rise and allows it to relax enough for final shaping.  If it seems to be rising too fast or too slow you can always adjust the amount of yeast you’re using to fit your schedule. 

Then just shape it (on parchment paper if it’s sticky), top it and put it in the oven.

There is a lot of room for variation and experimentation here so have at it and have fun, and happy pizza making!

Marcus

whitebirch's picture
whitebirch

I've combined the suggestions of many to arrive at an approach similar to yours.  It has been reliable for me.  You might try substituting your stated salt and yeast amounts with 1 1/3 teaspoons of fine salt and 1 teaspoon of of rapid-rise instant yeast, respectively.  I prefer not to include oil and sugar in my recipe, as I use a considerable amount of olive oil drizzled over my pizza sauce.  Also, a mixture of bread and AP flours is more to my liking for pizza.    

I mix my ingredients at very cold temperatures, as is popular for some baguette enthusiasts.  Once all lumps are worked out of the dough, I cover it and return it to my refrigerator.  After about 8-10 hours I stretch and fold the dough in three sessions, with 15-20 minutes between each session.  The dough is refrigerated when I am not working with it.  After the final stretch and fold I form the dough into a boule shape and allow it to rest for a few minutes.  It is then divided with a knife as one would slice a pie.  I form smaller balls by simply sealing and gathering the cut seams.  Balls are then placed in *very* lightly oiled bowls, covered, and returned to the refrigerator for use 12 hours or more later. 

When ready to shape, I flour the top of the dough and carefully use a nylon bread spatula to remove it from the bowl.  It usually releases from the bowl in a fairly round form.  The dough is then floured liberally and can be shaped immediately.  I periodically disperse flour beneath the dough while I am making the pizza.  This addresses the stickiness to which you refer.

Pizza stone is placed on floor of oven, with another stone or similar material placed on a rack a few inches above to create a radiant ceiling.  I set my gas oven to broil and allow it to become as hot as is possible.

I've found this approach to be very convenient to my schedule.  It results in excellent, reliable pizza.

Hope this may be helpful in some way...

Bread Head's picture
Bread Head

Marcus I let the dough ferment for 18-20 hours on the counter.

I am still very, very new to this and dont understand the difference of letting the dough ferment on the counter as opposed to the fridge??

wassisname's picture
wassisname

The cool temp of the fridge will slow the fermentation way, way down.  A dough that will hold in the fridge for 20 hrs could very well finish it's first rise in 90 minutes at room temp.  It depends on the dough, of course, but that gives you an idea of the effect rising temp can have.  Try the fridge, I bet you'll end up with an entirely different dough, even if you don't change anything else. 

Marcus

tgnytg's picture
tgnytg

I calculate your hydration level at about 80%!  That is very wet, especially for pizza dough.

Making a pizza from such a slack dough can be done, but it'll be like herding cats. Pizza dough can be very slightly tacky, but you really don't want it to be sticky at all. Usually pizza dough is coated with oil to release from the bowl/bag, so it doesn't stick to your hands at all.

Also, I am not sure of the applicability of "no-knead" dough for a pizza. You need plenty of gluten development in pizza dough for strength (you will be stretching the dough into a crust and need strength from the gluten so it won't rip), but you can get there easily with a few stretch and fold cycles using AP flour. I use King Arthur All Purpose for pizza, it has a good amount of protein, therefore gluten.

I suggest cutting back on the water to a hydration level between 60 and 70%. Based upon 400 gm of flour, the water weight should be between 240 and 300 grams. I use a pound of dough for a 12-14 inch crust, so make some adjustments since your dough will be lighter due to decreased water weight. Maybe in the recipe you provided above, use 540 gm flour and 350 gm water - that will get you just about 2 pounds of dough at 65% hydration. I would also bump up the yeast to 1 teaspoon, you want the dough to rise.

Bring the dough together, rest on the bench, stretch and fold, rest, stretch and fold, then refrigerate. Let the dough come up to room temperature or higher (4 to 6 hours in a warm spot to rise) before you try to work it so it is supple and less likely to rip. Form the dough into balls and rest before you shape them. Use bench flour to make sure the crust slides on the bench while shaping and slides on the peel before you load the oven, or you can use parchment or a pan.

I've had a Fibrement stone in my oven for many (6 to 8) years - it has seen at least a hundred pizzas and at least that many loaves of bread. My only problems have been when I rip the crust (usually by over-stretching or sticking to the peel).  Then there was the time when my son tried to cook a Freshetta freezer pizza (the biscuit-like crust, he didn't inherit my tastes) on the stone - it stuck like glue.

Cheers,  TomG

Bread Head's picture
Bread Head

Hi TomG,

Thanks for your explanation, this can be so confusing to me but yours helped.

Questions;

Where can I learn what you mean by "stretch and fold cycles"?  Is their a video?

What is bench flour?

"Bring the dough together, rest on the bench, stretch and fold, rest, stretch and fold, then refrigerate"

Are you saying after the 18 hour ferment, dump the dough out and fold into 3rds?  (That is the only thing that I know to do is fold into 3rds from the jim lahey menthod and have no pryor cooking/baking experience.  This bread was my first attempt at baking.)

How long do I let it rest?  

After the folding do I just place the dough in a bowl and refrigerate it in the shape that it is currently in from the folding?

Thanks.

Bread Head's picture
Bread Head

TomG I am going to try your pizza method.  Thanks for the "stretch and fold" tip.  I did some research and now understand why and how.

Questions about your method;

"Bring the dough together, rest on the bench, stretch and fold, rest, stretch and fold, then refrigerate"

Do you meant dump the dough out after 18 hour fermentation?

How long do I let it rest on the bench after dumping it out?

I will do the "stretch & fold" let it rest for 10 min and do the "stretch & fold" let rest for 10 min, then I will put the dough back in the bowl it came from and refrigerate it for 2 to 5 days.  Is this correct?

When it comes out of the fridge I will let it sit for 4 to 6 hours.

After I form the dough into balls how long should I let the balls rest before I push them out into a pie shape?  Can I go 1 to 2 hours?

Thanks!

 

 

 

tgnytg's picture
tgnytg

If I may suggest a couple of TV show videos to help, try looking up on YouTube two episode of Good Eats. The two shows are entitled "Doctor Strangeloaf" for bread, and "Flat is Beautiful" for pizza. These two shows will give you a lot of basic information to ponder as you begin to produce dough at home. There are plenty of other sources for video, but Good Eats tries to educate and entertain at the same time.

Okay, on with answers...

"Bring the dough together, rest on the bench, stretch and fold, rest, stretch and fold, then refrigerate"

Do you meant dump the dough out after 18 hour fermentation?

How long do I let it rest on the bench after dumping it out?

I mean, immediately after you initially mix the dough and get a uniform consistency, let it rest (covered loosely) for about 30 minutes either in a (lightly oiled if desired) bowl or on the counter.  Then do a stretch and fold, and again cover and let it rest. After another 30 minutes, do another stretch and fold. If the dough shows the proper amount of development (which can only be determined by experience - sorry!), form it into a ball, put it into a bowl (lightly oiled if desired), and place in the fridge for any length of time between 12 hours to 4 days. If there isn't enough development after the first cycle, repeat the rest, stretch & fold cycle until you do get enough. Try to get a feel for how the dough behaves each time you work it. Poke it, check how sticky it is, see how it resists your efforts to work it, look for signs of yeast bubbles, etc.

With pizza dough, it is difficult to over-develop the dough. The result of gluten development is that the finished pizza crust (or bread) will have "structure," become less sticky to work, and will be chewier (as opposed to tender) when it is baked. Chewy is a good thing for pizza, but may not be an attribute you want in bread based upon the variety you are making. Stretch and fold is one of many methods to develop gluten. You can take a dough that was barely kneaded and build the gluten structure via stretch and fold cycles. With experience you will be able to determine the correct amount of development that you need. The rest stage is important so the gluten in the dough relaxes as the flour slowly absorbs all of the liquid.

The longer the dough ferments in the fridge, the better flavor you will achieve, up to about 4 days or so - after that the gluten may begin to break down and the dough becomes weak again losing all the structure you built through stretch and fold.

I will do the "stretch & fold" let it rest for 10 min and do the "stretch & fold" let rest for 10 min, then I will put the dough back in the bowl it came from and refrigerate it for 2 to 5 days.  Is this correct?

I prefer to let the dough rest for 30 minutes at a time, but 10 minutes may be enough. I would suggest that 30 minutes for a rest is better than 10, but it mainly depends on what else I have to do that day. ;^)

When it comes out of the fridge I will let it sit for 4 to 6 hours.

After fermentation, I like to rely on the action of the yeast to let me know when it's time to work the dough. After removal from the fridge I set the covered bowl in a warm (NOT HOT!! that's deadly to your yeast) spot. When the dough has roughly doubled I know that the yeast is active and the dough is ready to be pre-shaped.

After I form the dough into balls how long should I let the balls rest before I push them out into a pie shape?  Can I go 1 to 2 hours?

I then divide the dough and shape each piece into a tight ball by rolling it on the counter with both hands in a circular motion (see videos suggested above). Each ball then needs to rest covered in a warm spot so it will rise and relax for final shaping. My preference is for the warm dough ball to again double before I do final shaping. That way the dough is very soft and relaxed so it won't fight me when I am stretching it out into a crust.

Thanks!

You're welcome, and good luck.

Remember, the more dough you make, the more you will learn. Experience buys you good judgement. I've been suffering from the obsession of baking for a few years and many times I often find myself learning something new about how my dough behaves. There is only one way to obtain experience...

Cheers,  TomG

tgnytg's picture
tgnytg

Wow, there are a bunch of questions in there! Let me take them in order:

> Where can I learn what you mean by "stretch and fold cycles"?  Is their a video?

Do a web search for "The Stretch and Fold Technique from Peter Reinhart" and find the video.

It is a stretch and fold cycle by Peter Reinhart, who many here consider a deity (me too).  Notice that he is working on an 80% hydration dough and it is like glop even in his very skilled hands. Thus my suggestion to you of 65% hydration.

> What is bench flour?

That's simply the flour you use to dust your work surface or dough surface. Peter is using oil and water for the same purpose in his video.

> How long do I let it rest?

A rest period is usually 10 to 30 minutes at room temperature. By "resting the dough" the gluten relaxes so the dough can be worked without it resisting your efforts. Right after stretching the dough, it gets very elastic and resists further work, but when it sits for a few minutes it becomes more supple and easy to work with.

> After the folding do I just place the dough in a bowl and refrigerate it in the shape that it is currently in from the folding?

Yep. Just get it into a ball or mound, and roll it around with 2 hands to stretch the outer surface and hide the seams. This gives you a smooth outer surface and creates surface tension (which will keep the bubbles well distributed). No need to pre-shape loaves or crusts before going into the fridge. After you remove it from the fridge and it comes up to temp, that is the time to pre-shape, rest, then final shape.

In the fridge, the yeast slows down so that the primary actors on the dough are enzymes and bacteria. Those are the actions that result in very subtle sweetness and sourness in the dough, and at the same time they get rid of the "raw flour" flavor. The cold frementation can last overnight to a few days. I usually let pizza dough cold ferment for at least 2 days.

Once the dough comes out of the fridge and as it warms up, the yeast will slowly start to work again producing alcohol and carbon dioxide (the bubbles). Once the dough is fully warmed and puffy, that's the time to separate it into individual doug balls ("pugs"), then rest, then pre-shape, rest, then do your final shaping. Cover it with goodness and get it on the stone.

Good luck on your adventure. This site is a great place to learn. Very helpful folks live here.

Cheers, TomG

whitebirch's picture
whitebirch

Another approach...

I tend to work with hydrations that are higher than those stated by Bread Head. Three stretch and fold sessions are performed in the bowl with no added flour or oil. The tackiness of the dough is minimized by the end of the last session. No bench flour is used until the final shaping. The tiniest coating of oil is sufficient for bowls to be used for divided doughs. Individual doughs can be coaxed from the bowls in fairly nice, round form.

I've found that dividing into individual doughs shortly after my final stretch and fold provides for a stronger, more uniform dough. This approach requires little in the way of rest time after the dough is removed from the refrigerator. I handle and shape immediately with no loss of quality in the final pizza. This approach produces a beautiful and delicious crust. It's well suited to a schedule in which one is only able to devote morning and evening hours to the process.   

tgnytg's picture
tgnytg

Bread Head is a self admitted n00b to bread and pizza. At his stage of this obsession, too much info can be as frustrating as not enough.

I figured I would try to make his life (and dough handling process) simple and straight forward.

Once he gets his dough legs under him, he can complicate his technique as much as he wants. You know, like you and I do.  ;^)

Cheers, TomG

 

Bread Head's picture
Bread Head

Thanks so much TomG!

Your answers are understandable to me, and I would like to know as much info as possible but your right, that would then confuse me.  I am trying understand the basic things about flour, temprature, yeast, etc.

I just love my No Knead bread, it tastes so good and I would of never thought I could get a bread like this at home, with no understanding of baking, kneading, flour, etc.  That is why I am trying the pizza thing now.  My ultimate is to get a wood fired oven! 

Bread Head's picture
Bread Head

Wow, not sure who to address this back to but I like your technique.  Simple, efficient and clean by working the dough in the bowl.

Would you be able to write your ingredients and steps you take to get your delicious crust?  (be detailed)

Thanks,

Bread Head


Bread Head's picture
Bread Head

TomG that video is exactly what I do with my Jim Lahey No Knead Bread after I dump it out on the table.

I stretch and fold it into 3rds and 3rds again then flip it onto a cornmeal dusted towl for 2 hours.

Is their any other video's that you can direct me too?  I learn a lot better with seeing it done than reading.

Thanks!

tgnytg's picture
tgnytg

There are a lot of posts in the forums on this site that have embedded and linked videos. 

For thousands of videos on any baking topic, google is your friend.

Cheers, TomG