The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Sourdough with mixed liquid starters two ways

varda's picture
varda

Sourdough with mixed liquid starters two ways

 

After several tries at croissants, I decided that for the sake of my waistline (and those of my family) I should give it a rest.   I was thoroughly frustrated with trying to sort through multiple approaches with multiple rationales, and decided that what I really needed to do was try something else that didn't require deep study.   So I pulled out my rye and wheat starters, built them up the way I wanted to - no books in sight - and the next day mixed up some dough.   I made enough for two big loaves but decided to refrigerate one of them after shaping so we could eat both fresh instead of one fresh and one day old.   I was also interested to see if there would be any difference between them.    The short answer is a little.  

The loaf pictured above was baked with no retard.   Even though I've been working hard at developing dough and I thought I'd got it after 25 minutes on low speed in the kitchen aid, some may say it is not quite there.

I don't know.   What say you?  

The second which was in the refrigerator for 20 hours before coming out for a three hour proof had a less appealing crust, but perhaps better crumb.   So development continues in the refrigerator?

In general I was very pleased with the taste and texture of this bread which is quite light and airy, with a crisp crust (both loaves.)   The retarded loaf has just a hint of sour while the one baked same day has none. 

Here is the formula:

Rye Sour

Seed

Feeding

Total

Percents

 

 

Seed

70

 

 

 

 

 

Rye  

37

107

144

 

 

 

Water

33

106

139

96%

 

 

 

 

 

283

 

 

 

Wheat Starter

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seed

30

 

 

 

 

 

KABF

3

 

3

 

 

 

KAAP

14

100

114

 

 

 

Rye

1

 

1

 

 

 

Water

13

142

155

132%

 

 

 

 

 

272

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Final

Rye Sour

 Wheat

   Total

  Percents

 

KABF

 

 

3

3

0%

 

KAAP

500

 

108

608

79%

 

Rye

 

138

1

139

18%

 

Whole Wheat

16

 

 

16

2%

 

Water

251

133

148

532

69%

 

Salt

14

 

 

14

1.8%

 

Rye sour

271

 

 

 

33%

 

Wheat starter

260

 

 

 

 

 

Rye factor

0.96

 

 

 

 

 

Wheat factor

0.96

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mix all but salt and autolyse for 55 minutes

 

 

 

Add salt and mix on first speed of KA for 25 minutes including

 

 

several scrape downs

 

 

 

 

 

BF for 2.5 hours with 2 S&F on counter

 

 

 

 

Cut in half, preshape and rest for 20 minutes

 

 

 

Shape and refrigerate one loaf in brotform

 

 

 

Proof the other in couche for 2 hours 15 minutes until soft

 

 

Bake at 450 for 20 minutes with steam, 22 minutes without

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After 20 hours remove loaf from refrigerator and proof on counter for 3 hours.

Bake at 450 for 20 minutes with steam, 22 minutes without

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
    
   
      
     
    
    
   
   
       
 
   
       

Comments

ananda's picture
ananda

All I can say is that these loaves look fantastic Varda!

Very best wishes

Andy

varda's picture
varda

Thank you Andy.  I have been happy with the flavor you can get from mixed starters, and wanted to experiment with more of the liquid in the starters than the final dough.   So many variables.   -Varda

jcking's picture
jcking

Go Varda, go...

Alveoli is spot on! You do that Voo Doo so well :-)

Looking forward to more.

Jim

varda's picture
varda

Hey Jim,   I see alveoli used on this site, but I don't know what it means.   Could you define?    And yes, breadmaking is great fun, don't you think?   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

jcking's picture
jcking

Alveoli; is a nicer way of referring to the holes (air sacs) in the crumb. Mostly used as a medical term. ~ Jim

varda's picture
varda

Jim, This is what I found:  Tiny, delicate air sacs deep within the lungs, where the gas/blood exchange occurs. Oxygen from inhaled air passes through the walls of aveoli and enters the bloodstream while carbon dioxide passes out in the same way when air is exhaled.   Wonder how this made it's way into bread making.    Thanks for explaining.   -Varda

jcking's picture
jcking

Same/same with the dough; put a little air in, get some carbon dioxide out. Maybe the French like to use alveoli instead of air sacs that pass gas :-) BTW, my daughter in Dedham is with child! ~ Jim

varda's picture
varda

instead of air sacs that pass gas

Yes indeed.  Alveoli sounds much better.   Wonderful news about your daughter.  -Varda

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Looks lovely Varda,

Thats is my kind of crust. YUM!

Cheers,
Phil

varda's picture
varda

for a moment or two as it almost blackened, but I must say that extra minute or two of baking does bring out a lot of flavor.   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

lumos's picture
lumos

Very interesting experiment. Thanks for sharing.  Both look lovely, but the cold-retarded one's crumb is definitely to my taste. ;)

So there wasn't much difference in flavour except for increased sourness in the retarded one, then?

varda's picture
varda

Hi Lumos,   At first I thought there was no difference but then I noticed the tiny bit of sour.   And not sour at all really.   Just as if there had been sour and it left, or something like that.   As for the crumb I wonder if the retarding made the difference and/or differences in proofing.   I was quite surprised to see such a difference.  Thanks for your comments.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Varda,

Very nice loaves!  Tis fun to experiment - especially when it turns out as well as yours has.

A question about the leaven.  Did you notice any difference in using a more liquid leaven compared to when you use a firmer one?

Thanks,

Janet

varda's picture
varda

I had used only a firm starter for quite awhile.   Then when I made a rye starter so I could make russian rye, it was 200% hydration and created a quite light textured all rye bread which really surprised me.   So that got me interested in going more in the liquid direction for starters.   Actually here, I got so carried away with the hydration of the wheat starter that I held back a bit on the hydration of the rye.   The texture of the rye starter when it was ready for baking was almost like a mousse which made me think that that was the thing that made the loaves above relatively light textured.    But really, it's hard (for me, anyhow) to say what does what.   I know that I have made quite a few clunkers over the last few weeks with liquid starter.   The combo of rye and wheat starters seems to have a great effect on the flavor of the bread.   I've made three of them so far - a Hamelman, one following Andy's formula, and now this one.   Thanks for your comments.   -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Varda,

Thanks for the input.  I agree.  It is hard to discern what does what which is the challenge that keeps me continually striving to learn more.  

This forum has helped soooo much in that I have learned far more here in the past year than in all the years I used to bake bread out of one cook book!    Now I know why things happen the way they do and I feel a bit more educated when I begin to tweak things around.  Before I had no clue as to why I would get a 'brick' and the book didn't explain why either and I had no clue what a 'windowpane' was - other than what I have in my house.   I had no real clue as to what a well developed dough was and for sure had never encounterd the realm of kneading that includes S&F or Bertinelli's (sp?) slap and fold technique!  

Now I will have to play around with HL when baking wheat breads....I know why ryes to keep it more liquid - learned here with the posts you mentioned above but hadn't connected that it was the HL in the starter - just assumed it was the over all HL in the loaves.

Again, thanks for the input :-)

Janet

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Beautiful loaves, varda! Seems you liked the double leaven breads.. 

Nice work..! Iguess you now know the trade off of excessive sourdough retardation.

 

varda's picture
varda

Khalid,   I think what I've learned is that long cold proofing in this context improves crumb, deteriorates crust, and isn't all that noticeable for taste.   So moving on, I think I'd go for something like a 10 hour retard rather than 20 hours.    And of course when I do that I'll find that it's not so simple.   I do love the flavor from using two starters.    For the three times I've tried, each with different formulas, the taste was excellent, and I think much better than what you would get with the same flour mix but a single starter.    Is what I'm saying on target with your experiences, or do you have a different view of it?    In any case, thanks for your comments.  -Varda