The Fresh Loaf

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Overproofed??

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Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

Overproofed??

Today i made some soft morning rolls dusted with semolina, this is the recipe and method I used, can anyone see a fault as to why I got air bubbles on the surface of the dough before reaching desired proof and poor oven spring?

3 hour preferment at room temperature;

60g organic white bread flour

80g water

2g fresh yeast

Final dough;

140g organic white bread flour

50g water

4g fresh yeast

4g salt

4g caster sugar

10g vegetable fat

I then kneaded the dough for around 8 minutes, the dough passed the window-pane test. I left the dough to bulk ferment in a clear container for 40 minutes again at room temperature with a stretch and fold after 20 minutes. I then knocked back the dough with a 30 second knead and proceeded to shape the rolls. I left the rolls to proof in a clear container with a jug of hot water creating warmth and humidity, after 1 hour they had reached around 3/4 desired proof size, but had developed large air bubbles/blisters on the surface :-(

Maybe I am bulk fermenting too long? Im unsure what I'm doing wrong, so any advice would be much apprecitaed.

Matt.

 

 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

The air bubbles indicate over-proofing. How far you can rise dough depends on a balance of strength and extensibility.

You mention stretching and folding during fermentation but then knocking back the dough after and kneading! How aggressive is your knocking back? If you are knocking out all the air then you've defeated the purpose of the stretch and folds!

Stretching and folding the dough provides strength by using the trapped gas to exert tension on the gluten. If you knock out the trapped gas you're exercising self defeat.

Another possibility is that you've not created enough surface tension on the dough. How good are your shaping skills? Does the dough spread a lot during the proof?

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

Thanks for the tips... maybe I should cut out the stretch and fold? My shaping skills are fine though. Does my bulk fermentaion seem excesive given my amount of yeast along with my preferment?

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Better yet. Keep the stretch and folds but knead only once and don't knock back. For each dough kneading should only be one part of the process.

Your recipe, to me, is still a quick bread. The nature of your pre-ferment won't really contribute much to the final dough. The quantity of yeast is excessive.

The idea of a pre-ferment is to provide flavour and acidity, which contributes strength. I wouldn't ever dream of using more than 1% yeast in a pre-ferment unless I was using retardation.

I suggest using a different recipe. Or if you want to stick with it then use a stronger flour / more water and knead to full-gluten development.

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

Just to mention it is fresh bakers yeast I am using... and the amount in my preferment was 1%. Would you not bother adding anymore to the final dough?

Surely if a dough is not knocked back, its gonna increase the chance of getting bubbles/blisters?

and my rolls are being scaled at 80g.... in theory they should treble in size before ready for the oven.

G-man's picture
G-man

If your results are an example of the theory being put to the test, they seem to speak for themselves. :)

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

you've lost me sorry?

G-man's picture
G-man

You said

in theory they should treble in size before ready for the oven

but if you are using that measure (or not even tripling them) and you're getting telltale signs of overproofing, the theory would seem to be discredited.

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

I never had this issue when i was skipping the bulk ferment, i literally did a preferment, made the final dough and proceeded straight into shaping and proofing, resulting in good volume, crumb, and much desired oven spring....

Its only recently I have been told that a bulk ferment is a "must" that I've began to encounter difficulties :-(

Do you have a basic recipe for a white loaf that uses a preferment that i could possibly use and see how i get on?

Many thanks

 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

The % of yeast in your pre-ferment is 3.3%. It wouldn't make sense to calculate the use of yeast against the total formula where there is more than one dough.

Surely if a dough is not knocked back, its gonna increase the chance of getting bubbles/blisters?

Not if you create good surface tension and you don't over proof.

The rising and degassing of the same dough is old skool and doesn't work in conjunction with the modern stretch and folds methods. As I explained previously using both in nonsensical. So you need to decide which way to go.

my rolls are being scaled at 80g.... in theory they should treble in size before ready for the oven

In theory yes. But obviously it depends on many factors mainly the flour properties and processing. With adequate flour they will treble but only if you have developed the gluten enough. I recommend working the dough to its maximum extension to achieve the desired rise.

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

Firstly thanks for your much appreciated advice :-)

So basically I need to cut down the yeast in the preferment? 1% of the total flour used in the preferment... so using that recipe it would be 0.6g?

Then use a stretch and fold during the bulk fermentation, and then shape without degassing? but how many? and how often?

How much yeast would you add to the final dough?

Matt

 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

0.6g, yes.

Determining how many stretch and folds will take practise. You need to give the dough enough time to relax between folds. The idea is to have swollen dough that gets shaped. 

I wouldn't add more than 1% in the final dough either (1.4g)

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

ok next time I will try this.... but at what point can i determine that there has been a sufficient bulk ferment? as I feel this is where its a difference between success and failure??

mwilson's picture
mwilson

I'll say about double the size but it depends. As long as it's swollen and not on the brink of collapse you should be ok.

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

Do you have a recipe for a basic white loaf that includes a preferment that I can experiment with?

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Poolish:
400 grams flour
400 water 18C
1 yeast

Mix to combine. Leave at room temperature for 12hrs or overnight.
Poolish is ready when the dough has risen fully and starts to wrinkle in the middle.

Final dough:
~ poolish
200 flour
2 yeast
30 oil
12 sugar
12 salt

Mix and knead to improved mix.
Place dough in a well oiled, flat and wide container.
Stretch and fold after 20 min intervals until the dough has doubled.
Turn out. scale and shape.

 I've adapted your original recipe. Hyrdation is a tad higher but percentages of oil and suagr are the same.

Let me know how it goes...

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

gonna be making a poolish this evening ready for bake tomorrow.... just one question, can a poolish be overproofed?

mwilson's picture
mwilson

yes it can. Typically when it has fallen it's considered over-mature which is ok but I would use it once it has formed a wrinkle in the middle.

mwilson's picture
mwilson
Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

thanks for the help 'mwilson' much appreciated! my poolish is fermenting as we speak :-)

am I correct in thinking that when a poolish is used, that less kneading time is needed? also the fact that stretch and folds are going to be used....

 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

You think correctly.

Further to my recipe I suggest you keep the final dough warm once kneading is complete.

Glad to be of help.
Michael

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

when shaping my dough, do i need to kcock all the air out, or is it best just to shape the dough keeping in as much air as possible? This is one thing I don't understand.....

what will happen if i completly knock all air out, and what if i keep in as much as possible.... what are the differences?

 

G-man's picture
G-man

Don't knock the dough back.

One advantage to stretching and folding is that it tends to be a bit more gentle on the dough, it seems to me. You want to keep as much gas in the dough as possible, that will give you a more airy crumb.

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

is it possible to retard after bulk fermentation and shaping up the dough? I made my final dough this morning and did two stretch and folds over a 1 hour bulk ferment

mwilson's picture
mwilson

should be fine.

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

just a couple of questions....

in the recipe you gave, why is the percentage of the flour in the poolish considerably high? 66% i believe. What would happen if it was lower?

based upon that question, how would i go about doing for example a wholemeal dough, that was 80% wholemeal flour? can only white flour be used in a preferment?

Many thanks

 

 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

It's purely my preference. I follow Italian baking and use of  the pre-ferment is high using 80% of the total flour typically. The idea is to really make the most of the pre-ferment's benefits; flavour and strength.

You can use wholemeal flour absolutely. This will likely boost flavour even more. You may want to adjust water content given that wholemeal soaks up more water.

G-man's picture
G-man

Poolish

375g flour

375g water

2g yeast

Mix ingredients, cover, let sit overnight or 12 hours.

Final dough

250g flour

All of the poolish

12g salt

10g yeast

Mix all ingredients until incorporated, let sit for 30 minutes covered. Stretch and fold, cover, rest 20 minutes, stretch and fold, let sit 15-20 minutes, shape and rise. I never wait for this dough to double, the stretch and fold step takes some time and uses up some of the yeast's food so that would probably lead to an overproofed loaf anyway. It's done when it has risen a noticeable amount and I can push my finger into it and have the indent slowly rise back up. Preheat oven to 200C, bake for 30-35 minutes. Turn oven off, crack open the door and let the loaf sit in the cooling oven about 10 minutes before putting it on a cooling rack.

I typically preheat the oven to about 230C and turn it down when I put the loaf in, but it's not really necessary.

G-man's picture
G-man

The first thing that came to mind was to ask about how your bread looked when it came out of the oven. How was the crumb? Was it more dense than usual, did you get less oven rise than expected? Those might also indicate overproofing.

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

When the rolls came out of the oven they were pretty much the same size as they were when they went in, the crumb wasnt as soft as i've had in the past. Any indications to how long I should bulk ferment according to the recipe I have used?

G-man's picture
G-man

Proofing by eye is a bit more reliable than proofing according to time, unless you've got a 100% controlled environment. With the specific recipe you've written out at a room temperature in the mid 60s to about 70F I'd probably check it after 30 minutes. With small rolls, spaced evenly about an inch apart in the dish they're going to bake in, I'd get the oven heating once they've started to touch and put them in when the oven is hot or maybe a bit before.