The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Recipe for a good hoagie roll

ryan_d's picture
ryan_d

Recipe for a good hoagie roll

Hey all, this is my first time posting on the forum. I just found the site a few days ago and have learned a lot already. I was wondering if anyone had any good recipes for making hoagie rolls. Being very new to the bread-baking scene, I'm not all that good with adapting a standard french or italian loaf into a sub-style loaf. Any guidance would be quite appreciated.

 

-Ryan

bwraith's picture
bwraith

ryan_d,

I think you'd get an OK rendition of a hoagie roll (MiniOven did something like this) by just using the "A Hamburger Bun" recipe (link) I posted in a blog recently. You would shape into about 4-5 hoagies instead of 10 hamburger buns. To shape, cut dough into 5 pieces and let rest for 5 minutes. Then stretch each piece into approximately a square. Fold/roll it over itself lengthwise like a letter, and seal the folds against the counter with your fingers or the heal of your palm. Stretch to lengthen a little more if necessary. Put the folds underneath and gently squeeze the sides and ends underneath a little more to increase the surface tension. Press down gently on top with palms to seal the seams and any dough you pushed underneath. Let rest five minutes, then place on pan for final proof. Omit sesame seeds, but still paint the surface with milk just before baking. Sorry if my description of the shaping is unclear.

Bill

bryancar's picture
bryancar

These hoagie rolls make a total and complete sandwich for a barbeque. This is an adaptation and variation of the Bread Baker's Apprentice... written by Peter Rinehart... recipe for Italian bread. It’s a combination of the Italian bread recipe, which includes Paté Fermentée in lieu of the biga(*). It yields a delightful hoagie roll with a soft, golden topped crust. These rolls go very well with just about anything you want to put on them like roast beef, turkey, char-broiled Italian sausage, BLT, BBQ beef or pork, or ham and cheese.

Dough Ingredients by Volume:

2 ½ cups Unbleached, high gluten bread flour
1 2/3 tsp non-iodized salt
1 TBS sugar
1 tsp instant yeast
1 tsp diastatic barley malt powder
1 TBS olive oil
7-8 Ounces milk
1 Egg yolk
8 Oz Pate fermentee
Semolina flour or cornmeal for dusting
Stick butter

Instructions:

Paté Fermentée should be at room temperature.

With a wooden spoon, stir together the flour, salt, sugar, yeast and barley malt powder in your largest mixer bowl. Add the olive oil, egg yolk, and milk. Mix until it forms a ball, adding flour and/or water according to need. Mix on medium speed with dough hooks until you get a dough that passes the ‘windowpane’ test, is slightly tacky and soft, but not too stiff. The dough should clear the sides and bottom of the bowl

Knead for 10-minutes on floured counter, or 6-minutes in mixer bowl with dough hooks. Lightly oil a large bowl and transfer the dough to the bowl. Roll the dough in the bowl several times so it is coated with the oil. Cover the bowl with plastic wrap. Let it ferment/rise until double in size. Because of the small amount of yeast used, the rising will take about 3-4 hours. DO NOT increase the amount of yeast.

Once doubled in size, add the 8-Oz of Paté Fermentée. Knead the Paté Fermentée into the raised dough, adding flour as necessary to get a silky, yet fairly stiff, flexible dough. Lightly dust with flour and return to bowl and let rise to double once again. This rising should take no more than 45-minutes.

Divide into either four or six equal pieces, depending on how large you want the rolls. Let the pieces rest for 10 minutes. Roll and shape into hoagie shaped rolls - about 8” long by 4” wide by 3 inches thick (for 4-roll.) The roll ends should be blunted, not pointed so you have a rectangular shaped creation.

Place the shaped rolls on a sheet pan that is lined with parchment paper, lightly oiled, and dusted with semolina flour (preferred) or cornmeal. Spray tops of rolls lightly with olive oil. Cover loosely with dry waxed paper and let rise to one and one half the original size.

Turn on oven and set to 500F. making sure there is an empty steam pan in the oven. Score the rolls with two horizontal slashes. Pour several cups of water in the steam pan, and spray the walls of the oven with water. Place the rolls in the oven. After 30 seconds, spray the oven walls again and quickly close the oven door. Repeat spraying again after another 30 seconds. After the final spray, lower the oven temperature to 400, and rotate the pan 180 degrees. It should take about 15 - 20 minutes for rolls to complete baking.

When rolls are golden and cooked through, remove them from the oven to a cooling rack and rub the tops of the rolls with a stick of butter for a soft, golden crust.

Paté Fermentée(*)

Paté Fermentée translates into fermented bread. It is NOT a sourdough, but rather a process that many bakeries use for either French bread, or Italian bread. The Italian version is called biga, and another French version is called poolish. Each version is different in consistency and has different uses depending on what kind of bread you are making. Each one is a key in breadmaking; a little bit from each batch is held over to the next day to make another batch, etc. the following day. I might add, that a frozen then thawed batch of the Paté Fermentée seems to have better bread rising qualities than the original.

This recipe yields approximately 16 ounces. Use only 8 Ounces for the roll recipe, and freeze the remaining 8 ounces in an air-tight freezer bag. It will last about 3-months. Lightly oil the inside of the freezer bag before you put in the Paté Fermentée.

Paté Fermentée Ingredients

1 1/8 Cups of unbleached high gluten bread flour
1 1/8 Cups of All Purpose flour
¾ tsp salt
½ tsp instant yeast
6-7 ounces of bottled water at room temperature


With a wooden spoon, stir together the flour, salt, sugar, yeast in your largest mixer bowl. Add the water. Mix until it forms a course ball, adding flour and/or water according to need. Mix on medium speed with dough hooks until you get a dough that is neither too sticky nor too stiff.

Knead for 4 to 6 minutes by hand, or 4 minutes in the mixer with the dough hooks. Dough should be soft and pliable and tacky, but not sticky.

Lightly oil a large bowl and transfer the dough to the bowl. Roll the dough in the bowl several times so it is coated with the oil. Cover the bowl with plastic wrap. Let it ferment/rise until 1 ½ times the original size.

Remove the dough from the bowl, knead it lightly to de-gas, and return it to the bowl. Cover with plastic wrap. Place the bowl in the refrigerator over night. You can keep this in the refrigerator for up to three days, or freeze in an airtight plastic bag for up to three months.

 

A P.S. here - always use bottled or spring water at room temperature. Chlorinated water and the yeasties don't always get along, and it can change the taste and texture of the bread.

bwraith's picture
bwraith

bryancar,

That's a very detailed great recipe for hoagie rolls. Thanks for posting it. It sounds like it would make delicious bread.

I wanted to add some suggestions for those who may get the urge to do this recipe on the same day when it's too late to do the pate fermentee. It may not taste quite as good without the pate fermentee and will have a little different texture, but you can use 2-3 tsp of yeast in the dough rather than 1 tsp, leave out the pate fermentee, and add 2.25 cups of flour, 6-7 ounces of water, and 3/4 tsp salt to the dough (i.e. replace the ingredients other than yeast from the pate fermentee). You should have a good bread for hoagies this way too, although it may not be as delicious as I'm imagining this recipe will be with the preferment. Also, regular AP or bread flour ought to work well in this recipe, although the texture would be slightly different, perhaps a little softer than with high gluten flour, for those who don't have high gluten flour available.

Without wanting to start any sort of unpleasant debate or start an endless nitpicking terminology discussion, while reading about pate fermentee and other preferments I've encountered some details that differ somewhat from the discussion of pate fermentee in this recipe.

1) I believe a better translation of pate fermentee is probably "fermented dough", or as it is usually translated in most baking literature I've seen, it would be translated as "old dough method".

2) Pate fermentee, biga, and poolish are all in the general category of "yeasted preferments" in most of the literature I've seen. Biga or poolish aren't subcategories or versions of pate fermentee or old dough method. They're all branches off the same trunk of "yeasted preferments", in other words.

3) The dough for a pate fermentee might often be taken from the dough at some stage in the dough making process of a previous day, although you can make it as a separate step as a home baker often would. However, poolish or biga are generally made up the previous day as a separate step in the baking process, rather than being extracted from part of the previous day's dough. Since pate fermentee is "old dough", it has salt in it, which is a fundamental difference between pate fermentee and biga or poolish.

I mention the above mainly because often I've heard questions from people expressing confusion about the proper terminology for the many types of preferments, and I believe the above is fairly representative of the explanations in a number of respected bread baking books such as Bread, BBA, and Artisan Baking, among others that I've read over time. Now I will put my helmet on and hope I have not inadvertently included something incorrect above after all that.

Also, as I said, the recipe is great, so please don't take this as any sort of criticism of bryancar's recipe. It looks wonderful to me, and I look forward to trying it out sometime soon.

Bill

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

Bill, Maybe someone will not appreciate your explaining the different terms, as you stated above, but I sure did. I come across them all the time and am not sure exactly what they mean. Now I know...Thank You!

Heidi, stuck in Tennessee

wavelover757's picture
wavelover757

Thanks for the ideas about how to "improve" or make the recipe easier.  The results were spectacular, but I tied up a whole Sunday making it.  The biggest time sink is the long rise when you put a small amount of yeast in the recipe.  Bryancar's warning about not increasing the yeast must mean something though. 

I've made Kaiser rolls using a similar recipe and the inside was dense.  I believe the difference was using the milk, olive oil and egg yolk for moisture makes the inside light and fluffy.

Last is the preferment.  You bring up some good points. The starter, preferment, biga, poolish or whatever you want to call it has only a few ingredients, whereas the dough has many more.  If you were to take some dough and mix it with the starter, it would change it.  Some other sources tell me that the way to refresh your starter is to add equal parts of flour and water.  Because I don't make bread everyday, I will just make a large batch of starter, let it ferment and then freeze it in batch size portions.    

Thanks for your thoughts,

Mike 

wavelover757's picture
wavelover757

Tried the recipe and I will say, it was marvelous!

Mike

qahtan's picture
qahtan

 

 

 Yes I would say the same as Bill. "It's the same meat but different gravy'

 Meaning same dough different shape. :-)))) qahtan

ryan_d's picture
ryan_d

Hmm, I'm going to have try that out.  The link looks quite good so I'll try it out and see how it goes.  I'm sure I'll be asking quite a few more dumb questions so bare with me but thanks for the replys!

 

-Ryan 

bryancar's picture
bryancar

Ryan -

No question is dumb. Asking is how we learn. If no one ever asked questions, where would any of us be? Lots more recipes at www.secretfoods.blogspot.com

Bryan

helixdork's picture
helixdork

I was wondering how this worked out?

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

I have just started to attempt to bake breads. I am fantastic in baking desserts, but just terrible at baking bread....Scali, being the worst (and my favorite of all breads). It rises beautifully , the first rise, yet after braiding it, it rises sideways. Do I need to braid the loaf? Maybe someone could give me a tried and true recipe so that I will start believing in myself. My husband, poor guy, has not complained, through all my attempts, and even gives me credit for not giving up. I have been at this for six months, baking, almost, everyday. Any help would be much appreciated.

Heidi, stuck in Tennessee

 

uluro's picture
uluro

My grandfather was a professional bread baker and had an Italian bread bakery for 40 yrs until he retired. He made the long French stick, Vienna bread, hard rolls, round bread both small and large and Scali both small and large.

What I remember about Scala: he added malt syrup to the dough mixture; after the 1st dough rise he put the dough through a dough breaker (a machine with big metal rollers) which refined the dough and made it very white and a gave the loaf a fine texture; he did NOT braid the loves, but folded it like an accordian (zig-zag) and pushed it together; he let the loaves rise, covered with a cloth and just before sliding into the huge oven, slashed each with a knife.  

Nanu has been gone for a long time and although I've searched bakeries all over, I've never found a Scala that tastes anything like what he made.  I'm an accomplished baked but have yet to reproduce a Scala like he made.

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

 

uluro, It sounds like your grandfather was a fantastic baker....too bad that he is no longer with us. I really would have appreciated his advice.

Heidi, stuck in Tennessee

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Heidi.

I have never made Scali. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever eaten it. However, there is a recipe for Scali with detailed instructions on the King Arthur Flour web site.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.


David

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

David, That is where I found the recipe and tried to make my Scali Bread. The flavor was great, texture not bad...just flat. Thanks ....I am going to try it again...It will be the third tme, following some of the advice from others on this site. Wish me luck.

Heidi, stuck in Tennessee

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

Heidi, Sounds like the dough hasn't had enough gluten development. Gluten gives the dough resistance to spreading out like pancake batter during proofing and baking. Are you allowing enough time to allow the flour to fully hydrate? I ask this because it is sometimes necessary to add flour to firm up the dough. How long has the dough been kneaded? Dough has to be kneaded until the proteins (gluten) relax and then about two minutes longer. You'll feel the dough firm up and become rubbery while kneading. Let the dough rest for 15-20 minutes in the refrigerator to relax the protein before continuing the knead. Usually, I just continue to knead till it relaxes. I knead by hand which doesn't add as much heat as an electric mixer. What are you doing to form the loaf? This is an art that took me a long time to finally "get it". The idea is to stretch the outer skin of the bread so that it forms a stressed skin. This skin "contains" the internal expanding bulk so that a balloning, and hence, rising action results. It's a technique that experienced bakers do so effortlessly that you could completely miss the action despite the fact that you're carefully observing them. I've found that properly stressed skins are also easy to slash properly...,

"Where Bowers of Flowers Bloom All Day in the Sun"..., 

Wild-Yeast

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

Wild-Yeast, I use my KitchenAid mixer (dough hook) to knead...about ten minutes. When you say to refrigerate, for the dough to rest, when do I do that? After my ten minutes of kneadiong? Then Knead again? How long? Boy, I am getting more confused. You asked about forming my loaves. I usually roll the dough out and then roll up, pretty tightly, pinching in the ends. They rise fine...It is the braiding that was not rising properly. 

Heidi, stuck in Tennessee

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

Hi Heidi,  Sounds like you're ok on the gluten. This is the part that is suspect:

"I usually roll the dough out and then roll up, pretty tightly, pinching in the ends. They rise fine...It is the braiding that was not rising properly."

I think you should braid "before" proofing.

Wild-Yeast

 

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

"Proofing" meaning? first rise? I told you ...this is all new to me...in my old age, let me add.

Heidi, stuck in Tennessee

uluro's picture
uluro

Try the King Arthur Scali recipe and let the dough rise to almost double for the first rise. Then put it in the fridge overnight or even up to 24 hours. Take it out of fridge, let it come to room temp. Form the dough like an accordian or zig-zag and push it firmly togther. If you work on a baking sheet, put the whole thing into a large plastic bag. Fold the end under and let it rise an hour or two. Just before putting into a very hot oven(425 degrees) slash down the middle lengthwise with a sharp knife or razor. Let it bake for 10 or 15 min. then lower temp to 400 degrees.

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

OH, what have I gotten myself into?  I follow you up until I lower the temperature...How long should it bake then? My bread never seems to turn a nice golden color (egg wash or not). I do bake it until it sounds hollow. (French , Italian)...Is that a sure way of knowing when the bread is ready to come out of the oven? I do apologize for my stupidity and I do appreciate everyone's attempts at walking me through this. Thank you all!

Heidi, stuck in Tennessee

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Heidi.

The most reliable way to determine when your bread is done is to measure the internal temperature.

Buy an "instant read" thermometer. Most groceries carry them for less than $10. When you want to check your bread, stick the thermometer probe into the center of the loaf. When done, it should read 205F. Some highly enriched doughs (lots of milk, eggs, sugar, etc.) are done at 190F. Erring on the high side is better than on the low side.

If your bread is done but the crust is too light, it usually means you should be baking that bread at a higher temperature.

I hope that helps.


David

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

David, Perfect...I have the thermometer...so that gets me to where I know when my bread is done...AND, you have answered why I am not getting that golden color. Thank you so much. I have a Maytag Gemini oven and have had nothing but problems with it from the day one. I have had the Maytag Man out to my house more times than I would like to admit (and I am sure Maytag would not like anyone to know either) so,  I am sure, the temperature is probably off again. Thanks for helping me out.

Heidi, stuck in Tennessee

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Could someone please explain Scali bread? I tried to find it on the King Arthur site but wasn't sure where to look - is it a loaf or rolls? Just curious, A.

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

This is what is at the bottom of the page I printed out for Scali Bread recipe, King Arthur Flour site, The Baker's Catalogue:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/recipePrint.jsp?pv=1209915776022&recipe_id=1206...

See if this will help. Scali bread is an Italian type of bread with, if made properly, has a great texture. It is in loaf form (free formed)...not always braided, as in this recipe. It usually has a topping of sesame seeds. Hard to explain.....I am from the Boston area and that is the only place that I seem to be able to find the true Scali Bread. (True to me , being brought up on it there. I have found it in other parts of the country, but none of them seem to have that special flavor...which I can't explain.)

Heidi, stuck in Tennessee and missing home

uluro's picture
uluro

To the instructions I gave a few days ago add: when ready to form a Scala (one loaf) roll the dough into a long rope about 2 inches in diameter. Fold this rope accordion or zig zag style, back and forth. Then push it together firmly. Cover with a damp cloth or if you've used a baking sheet, put it into a large plastic bag, folding the bag under. Pull up on this bag to be sure it doesn't come in contact with the rising loaf. Let rise several hours or until almost double.

Preheat the oven to 475 degrees. Place a pan of hot water on the floor of the oven at least 30 min before you intend to bake the bread. Just before getting the bread onto a pizza stone, slash it lengthwise down the middle with a sharp knife or razor. Now, get the bread onto the pizza stone using a peel coated with cornmeal or the back of a cookie sheet, close the oven door and reduce the heat to 450 degrees.

Allow to bake for 2 min., then add a cup of hot water to the pan. Do this 2 more times. Continue baking for an additional 40 to 45 min. or until the internal temp of the bread reaches 205 to 210 degrees, using an instand read thermometer.

An added note: time = taste. Or fermentation and a lengthy, cool rise produces the most flavorful bread. My grandfather never put sesame seeds on his Scali.

bryancar's picture
bryancar

Good posts re: Scali. I have a question. How does one place dough to rise in a plastic bag without the dough eventually contacting and sticking to the plastic? A long, cool, retarded rise does indeed make for a more flavorful bread.

If a pan of hot water (is placed) on the floor of the oven at least 30 min before you intend to bake the bread, why would more water be added later on in the process? Would it all evaporate? Wouldn't adding iced water to a hot pan at the outset of placing the dough in the oven give the initial burst of steam necessary? Granted, it would lower the oven temperature, but can't additional baking time compensate? Just curious.

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

Good questions...' can't wait for the answers.

Heidi stuck in Tennessee,,,still.

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

If I can't make the perfect Scali after this, I have a major problem. (Luckily, my husband is not looking over my shoulder...I can imagine what he would say ...something like "NOW?") I am off to buy a baking stone (at least if I still fail (and give up), my husband can use it for all his Pizzas. I do have one little question...If the dough is only 2 inches, how small and how many zig-zags can I make?

Heidi, still in Tennessee

bryancar's picture
bryancar

Depends on how long the strand is. Ask your self, How long must it be to maintain the 2" diameter? :-)

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

Oh, I got it...I think...I am very slow...old age can do it to you. I make the zig-zags from one end of the rope to the other. Is that what you are saying?

Heidi, not only stuck in Tennessee, stuck in the mind.

bryancar's picture
bryancar

What kind of stand mixer do you use for mixing and kneading? Do you really need to make the Scali, or would a basic loaf of Italian bread do - either as a traditional shape, or an artisan loaf? I would have to suggest that the unique flavor comes from a combination of things: #1. Adding Diastatic Barley Malt to the dough; and, #2 the long, retarded rise in the refrigerator

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

I use my KitchenAid mixer. I do make Italian, French, and Pita bread...It is the Scali bread that is giving me the trouble. The other breads are OK, but I wouldn't open a bakery. Now explain Diastatic Barley Malt for me. When do you add it?

Heidi stuck in Tennessee

bryancar's picture
bryancar

It's added with the flour. I think this might be what you are looking for - with a different "twist." :-) You can order it from King Arthur Flour. It lasts for a very long time if kept refrigerated or in the freezer.

uluro's picture
uluro

The first rise is usually done in a large bowl, but I use a dough rising bucket from King Arthur.  It's when you form the dough into a loaf that you can do this on a baking sheet, which then goes into a plastic bag for rising before going into the oven.

The pan of water:  already HAS water in it, you just add an additional cup or so because at 475 degrees, it does indeed evaporate and more needs to be added.

The 2 inch strand: it doesn't matter how long it is, just keep folding back and forth.  Then push it  together.  It was JUST a suggestion as it's easier than braiding 3 strands for some people.

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

Good suggestion (folding). My original question was "Do you have to braid it?" and now I know..."No!".

Thanks again, Heidi stuck in Tennessee

bryancar's picture
bryancar

Baking is so much like classical music composition - Bach, Mozart, Haydn, or Handel - so many variations on a theme. And the amazing part of it all? They all seem to work according to plan. Baking is a wonderfully creative process. I sure hope Heidi has success in her endeavors. We all keep trying - some efforts with great success; others with lessor success than what we are looking for. I guess the name of the game is to keep trying. And that day, when it comes, we all jump up and down and say to ourselves VOILA!! I got it. :-)

HEIDI5522's picture
HEIDI5522

It isn't that I haven't tried. My poor husband has been coming home every night to another new attempt of me making bread. I have to hand it to him...He never says anything to put me down...More like "You will get it...SOMEDAY." He has said that the flavor is always good...but he wants fuller (higher loaves). Now that everyone has given me so much help, how can I fail? PLEASE do not answer that....Just pray!

Heidi stuck in Tennessee and planning on trying again, but not tomorrow...He went out and BOUGHT fresh bread. Think he is trying to tell me something?

doni49's picture
doni49

Hi all!

This hoagie roll recipe sounds like something I definitely want to try.  I have a question about the rising though.

If I set it aside for that long, I would tend to get involved in something else and may not make it back in the suggested time.  What happens if it sits longer than is suggested?

I've never made bread.

Thanks.

 

bryancar's picture
bryancar

You could always let the first dough rise in the refrigerator for what is called a retarded rise. This method gives the bread a better taste; or, form the rolls, cover and let them rise in the fridge over night. Let them come to room temperature, then bake.

doni49's picture
doni49

Thanks for the reply.  If I were too do it this way, how long would it be safe to leave in the fridge?

uluro's picture
uluro

uluro

...the dough in the frige overnight and for as long as 2 whole days with no ill effects.  Just be sure to let the dough come back to room temperature before forming into loaves.