The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Hello, New member

RonaldD's picture

Hello, New member


New member here from Canada.

Question,  when you punch the dough for the second rise and when shaping it for pans

do you knead it for 10 minutes each time like in the dough preparation prior to the first rise?


OldWoodenSpoon's picture

It really does not mean "punch", as literal interpertation would lead you to believe.  What it really means, unless your recipe dictates otherwise, is just a gentle but thorough degassing of the dough.  That, and re-rounding it to return it to your rising container is usually sufficient to redistribute the food supply and bring the yeast into contact with it.  I sometimes add a stroke or two of kneading if the dough has been sluggish, but that is all. 

That original 10 minute (plus or minus as the dough dictates) period of kneading is to develop the gluten in the dough.  When you are kneading that much prior to bulk fermentation then the dough development should be pretty much finished at the end of that exercise.


Welcome to The Fresh Loaf Ronald.  You will find many fellow Canadians around the site to compare notes with.

Floydm's picture

Welcome, Ronald!

As OldWoodenSpoon said, at the midpoint you don't knead to need again. At most you might fold the dough 5 or 6 times to degas it and tighten it up some.



richkaimd's picture

Here are some tips for using this website to your greatest advantage:

1.)  Get in the habit of reading it often.  You'll pick up a lot as you go along.

2.)  When you have a question, use the Search function first.  It's on the upper left of every page.  Put in your questions or even just an important word of two and see what comes up.  You'll inevitably learn more than you expected and it'll take less time than waiting for someone to answer your question.

3.)  As soon as you can, watch all the videos.  A lot may go over your head at first, but soon enough you should catch on.

4.)  Practice, practice, practice.  Post your results as often as you like, along with your questions or requests for comment.  We can all learn from you.

5.)  Decide how you learn best before you buy a cookbook.  Remember that cookbooks are different from textbooks.  Cookbooks are compilations of recipes which have no obligation to teach.  They may have lots to learn but they don't start you off with the plan of teaching you from a good foundation.  That's what textbooks are meant to do.  There are lots of good text books.  I recommend this one for beginners:  Dimuzio's  Bread Baking.  It's reasonably priced at Alibris or Powell's.

6.)  See whether you can find a local home baker with lots of experience who might be willing to let you watch and feel the product during the various phases of baking bread.  Post a note on this website with your home town and see if there's someone local to you.  There's nothing like touching and doing with dough to get the moves.

Good luck!


RonaldD's picture

Thank you all for the welcome and the response.

I just took it out of the oven.......

Is it normal for  a home bread to feel heavier than store bought bread?  Even the bread at supermarkets that have oven baked breads are a lot more fluffer and less weighty than mine.

The first and second rise went all up and looked good.  but I kneaded for 4 minutes prior to shaping after the second rise,  before the comments were in...

It also would be nice to know how to disable this double space.   The bread just did not get that little push from the oven heat by the way and did not double in size in the pan... one hour and a quater I waited on all rises.. but the pan one just did not work.


OldWoodenSpoon's picture

even from an in-store bakery, probably (almost certainly) contains a lot of dough conditioners, was kneaded very hard by a machine, used a lot of yeast...  And probably does not taste very wonderful.  It may, however, be nice and light and fluffy.  It is possible to bake bread at home that is similar in texture and lightness, but will generally taste better.  Getting to that point involves some practice, perhaps some bettter (or just more appropriate) flour, and learning some techniques to help. 

At this point it is difficult to diagnose issues without some specifics about your recipe, more detail on your process, and the details on how you baked.   It would require  pure speculation, for me at least, to offer suggestions without this essential data to start from.  Fill us in on the details of what you used, what you did and how you did it, and you will get tons of possibilities and suggestions back. 

Also, is this one of your first attempts to bake bread?  How much experience do you have?  If you are very near the beginning of the learning curve you should consider going through the Handbook and the basic Lessons available here on The Fresh Loaf.  These will help you to get oriented, gain some understanding of the basic "outline" of bread baking, and to pick up some fundamentals as a good foundation for the rest of your learning.  The resources here are very good.

Oh, and you can get rid of that pesky double line-feed by holding down the [Ctrl] key when you hit the [Enter] key.  That will give you just a single line feed instead.  The other is a paragraph break.


RonaldD's picture

Thanks  Old Wooden Spoon.

I followed the basic recipe # 1 from this site.  I followed it to the T.

I used the active dry yeast from Fleischman , fresh and followed the direction and it proof quite readilly.

I may have kneaded it too much prior to shaping,  plus I could not find my Mom's old steel  pans so I bought disposable aluminum bread pans????

However, after having tasted it,  I must say that it tasted quite good and light,  with none of that yeasty taste from a breadmaking machine. I do not like that light angel food in store baked bread.

It seems that you cut a slice one inch thick and it is gone in three gulp,  it's like eating cotton candy.  And the fresh package bread from the aisle?  I simply am tired of eating that stuff.

It is like you can just form a ball of dough with it..  I must say I was surprised and brought back memories.  I will try it again and not knead after punching as suggested.

What can I put on the top of the loaf prior to baking so that it is not so hard?

Thanks and keep the suggestions coming.



MangoChutney's picture

You can brush olive oil on the crust of the hot loaf when it has finished baking, if you want a softer crust.  Actually, you can use any oil, but the aroma of olive oil being brushed on hot crust is too wonderful to miss.  *smile*

OldWoodenSpoon's picture

So, you got a good loaf of bread, but not perfect.  Join the club!  We all live there from time to time.

By basic recipe #1 I am going to assume you mean "Your first loaf" from the lessons.  Good place to start.  For sure, you will want to bake it again and leave out the extensive kneading at the "punch it down" stage.  I think you will like the results you get from just what I mentioned above.  Also, try to only change one thing at a time!  It can be very hard figuring out what did what to what when you change a bunch of things at once.  It complicates the learning process, rather than helping or speeding it up.

If you got a thicker crust than you thought you should, the first thing to do is to check your oven temp.  If you have an oven thermometer then just preheat to the prescribed temperature by the control panel with an oven thermometer in your baking position.  When the oven is hot, check the thermometer.  It sounds like your oven may run a little hot.  It is just part of the learning process to figure out what adjustments to make.  You may need to calibrate your oven, or adjust the preset to get the right temperature.  If you don't have an oven thermometer, try to pick one up if you can.   They are often available for a reasonable price right in the supermarket, on the "Kitchen Gadgets" ailse.

You can also tent the loaf loosely with aluminum foil when it starts to get good and brown to protect it some.  I like to brush the crust with melted butter when it comes out if it is a bit too crispy.  But then, I love butter and will sink to all kinds of reasons to use it. :)

Keep at it!  You get to eat all the practice!