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Is there not one mixer that can do it all and for less than $600??

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boswin's picture
boswin

Is there not one mixer that can do it all and for less than $600??

My Kitchenaid Pro 600 isn't totally dead, but when I bake bread, it burns out real easily and can only kneed for 30 seconds, so it's on it's way out.  I've been reading posts on here for days, but there is no one clear winner.  The KA is good for cakes, cookies, but not bread dough.  Bosch- not good w/small quantities.  DLX- high mainentance, user has to watch constantly and move the arm, plus they just raised prices on DLX to $750.  That's crazy money!  The Globe 8 or 10Q seems perfect, but costs over 1K.

So I have no clue what to do.  The Globe would be perfect but it's too pricey.  The DLX seems complicated and pricey at $750 (at that money i'd like to turn it on and walk away like with KA).  Also I have a small kitchen, so I can't have 2 mixers, I really need one that can handle everything including bread.

 

What do you guys suggest???  I really don't want to go over $600.  Please advise...........

loydb's picture
loydb

I don't find the DLX to be high-maintenance, but it for sure isn't really a walk-away-from-it type mixer. It sounds like your best bet is going to be to continue to burn up KA mixers, give your working parameters. You can go through two or three of them for the price of the DLX.

I burned up 2.5 KA mixers before switching to the DLX, so I understand your pain. I still keep the .5 one around for grinding meat.

 

 

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

I had a good laugh at your "2.5 KA mixers".

I'd wager most of us here know exactly what you mean.

The smell of burnt plastic...

...the gurgle of a dying KA.

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

I sometimes think there's a price goblin that sits between the $450 and $1250 price point and yells at anyone who tries to market a mixer between those two points, "THOU SHALT NOT SELL A MIXER FOR MORE THAN $450 BUT LESS THAN $1250 OR THOU SHALT BE SMOTE."

When I was in the market, I finally gave up on finding a compromise and just spent the $1399 for a Chinese/Tawianese 20 qt., like this one, although you find them under a bunch or other brand names. I think it's available for even less these days for around $950. Someone on TFL bought a new one recently for that price, so maybe he'll chime in. (No comment on the 7 or 12 qt. machines; don't know if they're the same quality as the 20qt, which is rock solid).

What am I babbling about? Oh, yes, resale value.

That's one way to think about it that might get you over the hump of spending that much. Whereas a KA and other home mixers lose a lot (most?) of their value, these 20qt+ machines don't depreciate that much (as long as you don't abuse it in a commercial setting). You might spend $1250+, but you'll make back 3/4 back if you sell it. I sold mine after a year and sold it for the full purchase price (I lost only the $400 shipping). (Why sold? Too much of a mixer for me. I was donating tons of bread to the Denver Homeless Mission for a year, so I guess that's a plus.)

Globe makes a 5 qt for $587: http://www.bigtray.com/globe-mixer-sp5-sku-glosp5-c-11490.html 

That might be too small, however. I know nothing about the quality of this mixer, but it is gear driven. Most "commercial" machines at this price point are belt driven.

Nickisafoodie's picture
Nickisafoodie

1) I bought a lightly used globe 20 qt mixer from a bakery for $999, $2400 new.  They had a Hobart 20 qt that they kept, price $4500!  Craigs list.  It is rated for 12 - 14 lbs of dough, most I can get in my oven is 5 loaves at 2.4 pounds each.  Never breaks a sweat.  280 pounds and its on a stand in my garage.   Right time, right place so I know I could sell this for $1500 easily.  But I love it.

2) Sounds like a 10 qt would be better, 5 qt is rather small - but still not going to fit into a tight kitchen. 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I have three mixers, two KA (one is a half dead Pro 600 that continues to remind me how much I hate KA) and an Assistent N28 (DLX by another name in another time).  However, if you don't absolutely have to have the larger capacity of the Pro 600 (which in my experience will mix up to about 1400 g - less than half of what the Assistent will mix all day, every day, without complaining) then the smaller KA models might be a good fit.  My small one is a Hobart-built K45 that is 40 yrs old and it still works just fine.  And while the new KA designs have limitations, the smaller ones have smaller motors which won't overheat as easily and may not be not strong enough to strip the gears (assuming the gear box has a metal housing).  Somebody on this forum may have a different perspective which I would be happy to hear, but for single loaves of up to 750g the Artisan might be a decent machine - and it will work with relatively small loads too.

As for the Assistent being a "walk away from it" machine.  There are some things that I can mix for 9 minutes without looking (I have actually come to recognize the sound of my ciabatta dough coming off the wall of the can which means that I have a minute to clean up from whatever I am doing before I have to watch the final gluten development and shut it off) and there are some things (55% hydration bagel dough, or Liege waffles when incorporating the butter, ...) where you need to manage what the machine is doing.  But I wouldn't let my car run off on it's own for more than a few minutes either.

boswin's picture
boswin

Hi Guys-

Thanks for the replies so far.  No can do with a 5 qt, I really need 6 qt min, would love 8-10qt.  So it truly seems like there's nothing that meets my specs- 6-10 quarts, handles sm quantities well, does cakes and cookies well, handles bread dough well and is a "walk away" type of mixer, and around $600.  Darn!  I would have maybe gone up to $800, if I found a good fit.  I guess I may have to resort to what someone suggested to burn thru a couple Kitchenaids until a new contender enters the market.  At least the place I bought it has a good return policy.  Amen for that!

Thanks again for your input.

Nickisafoodie's picture
Nickisafoodie

Only one Kitchenaid model is all metal, the 575 watt 6 quart pro line  mixer.  I spoke to Kitchenaid today and they tell me they are "transitioning" to all metal on the full product line but would not give any time frame but it sounded like many months if not longer.  Reading between the lines: there is lots of inventory out there with the plastic parts.  So make sure if you buy one, it is all metal! 

Actually both of these, near as I can tell the first comes only in black and you will see it says all metal in the upper left corner

http://www.kitchenaid.com/flash.cmd?/#/product/KL26M8XOB/

This one is a different model number (KP vs KL) but am told today it too is all metal although the link does not say this - this one comes in a variety (10) of colors.

http://www.kitchenaid.com/flash.cmd?/#/product/KP26M1XWH/

The other difference is first says shipping weight of 32 pound, the other says 30 pounds - this clearly is a website error as the capacity is identical for both. 

These go for $350-375 including shipping on ebay-new.

latida's picture
latida

My KA Pro 600 now has a value cost of close to $800 after a couple of drive shaft and gear replacements. No, I don't think there is a mixer that will do it all for under $600. Also don't be fooled by the "pro" name. KA doesn't consider it a professional model when it comes to warranty or support. If you do anything more than casual, once in a long while bread baking, avoid the KA ... good marketing, substandard product for bread making.

Greg

tn gabe's picture
tn gabe

it's a beast, keep your eyes peeled and you can get one for a reasonable price.

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast
thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

...I referred to above. Different retail brand, same manufacturer.

Very good mixer, at least the 20 qt is!

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi

Personally, I find the specification generally for mixers intended for home use to be wholly inadequate.

Commercial machinery, new, is very expensive.

I know I'm UK-based, so in a slightly different situation; however, my best recommendation is to buy a secondhand commercial mixer from E-bay, or similar.

See my post here:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/25829/%E2%80%9Crossisky%E2%80%9D-using-three-stage-auerman-process-pain-au-levain-using-rye-sour-and-wheat-leav#comme...

This cost me £305 plus delivery costs just over £93, so less than £400 altogether.   Ok, the 20 quart Hobart is old.   But old is good to me, as it means it was built to far better specification in the first place.

Did Blur write a song called "Modern Life is Rubbish"?   I would certainly apply that to decent dough mixers!

All good wishes

Andy

richkaimd's picture
richkaimd

I've had an old KA 6qt for a long long time.  It is a work horse but my baking needs necessitated a machine with a larger bowl.  I got a DLX.  I simply have no complaints about it for breads, cakes, or cookies.  It has shown no evidence of functional decay to date despite quite regular use for many years.  I bought the DLX nearly new at an estate sale on Ebay for a very reasonable price.   Don't cross the DLX off your list.  It's got a big bowl that's easy to access.  It never walks across the counter.  It's more powerful than the KA.  It has easy to use instruments.  Its footprint's not that much bigger than my KA and it's shorter.  And, with accessories it will do your laundry (though not the ironing) and make your coffee.

loydb's picture
loydb

I agree with this. The only reason I didn't say "get a DLX" is that the original poster seems pretty set against it, and it's $150 more than allocated. But yeah, I'd hit you with a bat if you tried to swap my DLX for another KA.

 

 

flournwater's picture
flournwater

"The KA is good for cakes, cookies, but not bread dough."

I respectfully disagree.  I've been using mine for five years, almost exclusively for bread making, and it works just fine.

aarmogan's picture
aarmogan

I am a little worried reading this thread!  I have been kneading by hand for about 2 months now and I enjoy it; though for some applications I realize that I may have to buy a mixer eventually.  Do Kitchen Aids really fall apart so easily?  If I were to bake 1-1.5 lb of bread a week, would it hold up for me?  Are they just unreliable in the super-extreme commercial scenarios yall are talking about?  Flournwater - how much bread do you bake on a weekly basis?

Chuck's picture
Chuck

If you always make high hydration doughs and relatively small batches for only your own eating, there doesn't seem to be any need at all for a dough mixer ever. Techniques like Autolyse and Stretch&Fold and FrenchFold do all the work just fine. If you bake for someone else too, or for a Farmers' Market, or commercially, or sometimes make lower-hydration recipes, or have a bad back or a bad case of carpal tunnel (don't get old:-), then dough mixers often help a whole lot.

tn gabe's picture
tn gabe

i went to look at a large, commercial bread oven on Monday and the baker told me when his mixer went down last summer they were mixing 1000 loaves a week by hand.

i made about a 3kg batch of pain au levain yesterday by hand and it was probably less work than cleaning up the mixer afterwards would been.

that being said, for larger batches it sure is nice to only do 1 or 2 fold instead of 8!

bridgebum's picture
bridgebum

Like flournwater, I've been using a KA mixer (model RRK5A) for home breadbaking for years (8 in my case) without issues. I bake 6-8 loaves a month.  It may have plastic gears and a wimpy 325 watt motor, but it still works.  But now that I think about it, maybe I should go out and buy a lottery ticket.  ;-)

 

Marty's picture
Marty

I don't own one but like the looks of this

http://www.cuisinart.com/products/stand_mixers/sm-70.html

Any owners out there with comments?

richkaimd's picture
richkaimd

I have used my daughter's Cuisinart mixer for bread.  I do not like it.  As big and heavy as it looks, it just isn't much different from my old KA in some respects and it actually seems a bit flimsier in others.  I am so used to my Electrolux's bowl accessibility that I found feeding the Cuisinart's bowl difficult and quite prone to spillage.  I used a collar with a shute for adding flour and spilled nonetheless.  It didn't seem any more powerful than the KA either.  I couldn't recommend it at all.

By the way, this mixer conversation's been repeated a lot.  I recommend to you and everyone else to use the search function before you ask a question.  There are so few truly new questions.  "Search" will save you lots of time.

boswin's picture
boswin

Thank you for everyone's input.  FYI- my KA pro 600 is NOT good with dough.  Might be from the bad years with plastic gear housing.  If other people can do dough with their KA pro 600, consider yourself lucky.  Call me nervous, but I'm not so comfortable buying an old hobart or old globe for let's say $800.  That's a lot of money and it most likely will need servicing.  The DLX is now $750, I'm surprised no one is gasping in shock.  Lots of people bought it for $500 and said it's expensive back then, why aren't others upset at the crazy 30% price hike???

Then there's always the other name brand new mixers like Centaur, Thunderbird, Anvil, Uniworld, Eurodib, etc.  I'm scared to get the knock offs, can't get a good reading on if people are happy with them.  Not many reviews to read about.

 

I guess if anyone is looking to sell their used DLX for around $250, I may give it a try, but I just can't do $750.  It's tempting to try a used one b/c it has a small footprint, whereas the commercial ones have a huge presence and remember I have a small kitchen...... Oh well, the saga continues.  If there are any folks who've tried the other name commercial mixers in 8-10 qt, I'd like to hear your opinions.  Thanks everyone!!!

naschol's picture
naschol

I think the reason I wasn't gasping is because if my DLX broke today, I wouldn't have to buy a new one.  They are guaranteed for life.  :-)  Makes it worth it, I think.

 

Hubitom's picture
Hubitom

I just searched for the DLX, but the site I came to said that it's only warranted for 3 years on the motor, and 1 year on accessories. Is this mixer (MagicMill, made in Sweden) a different DLX than the one you guys talk about? Just curious, my KA 600 still works. Making Bread for the last few years maybe once a month, usually 6 pound batches.

 

Thomas

flourgirl51's picture
flourgirl51

HI

 The now named Verona Assistant  DLX mixer comes with a two year, parts and labor, manufacturers' warranty. It is made in Sweden.

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

I'm also not gasping, since the decline in the primacy and strength USD is largely to blame, methinks, as the DLX is imported from Europe.

Those of us outside the US are enjoying buying stuff from you guys online, however :)

loydb's picture
loydb

I paid ~$625 for mine as I recall. That's cheaper (combined) than the three KA mixers that preceded it, and I think it will outlive me. If not, it's gauranteed.

 

Grampa Knuckles's picture
Grampa Knuckles

Go with the Assistent?DLX...

The USA only warrantys 2 years but most Scandanavian countries and Canada too warranty for 5.  You know if they can warranty that long they dont break or they wouldn't do it they would just give the one or two like everyone else.

 

Grampa Knuckles's picture
Grampa Knuckles

Go with the Assistent/DLX...

The USA only warrantys 2 years but most Scandanavian countries and Canada too warranty for 5.  You know if they can warranty that long they dont break or they wouldn't do it they would just give the one or two like everyone else.

 

Barbara Krauss's picture
Barbara Krauss

Have you looked at the Vikings? 

http://www.metrokitchen.com/product/VK-VSM700BR

jlewis30's picture
jlewis30

I keep a little hand mixer for sweet baked treats and whipping things and my own two hands for dough. It is really not that much work.

richkaimd's picture
richkaimd

Use the search function (upper left) when you've questions like this.  You'll find lots of comments about the Viking mixer.

boswin's picture
boswin

I didn't ask about the Viking.  I know that won't meet my needs......

dwcoleman's picture
dwcoleman

I bought a Bosch Universal for $359, I do admit that it's less than ideal for small batches of dough(<500g).  Given its one drawback it's very powerful, and can hold alot of dough, more than my old Kitchenaid Pro600 that was dying a slow death.

boswin's picture
boswin

So what do you guys think is a better buy: $750 for DLX or $860 for knockoff name commercial counter top mixer (ex: centaur, uniworld, thunderbird, etc)????

loydb's picture
loydb

What kind of warranty do you get with the knockoff?

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

The usual warranty on the knockoffs is a 2-year part / 1-year labor.

Not sure if the warranty has any value, however; as, where will the labor come from?

And they weigh so much that shipping them back is cost-prohibitive.

When I bought mine, I really looked at is a "no warranty" purchase.

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

I'd go with the commercial.

Better resale value, more power, easy to use, easy to clean, etc. 

Unless you're using it in a commercial setting, I doubt you'd be able to break it, even if you tried. Just don't mix cement in it for that new patio and you should be fine. Also, pay attention to maximum bowl volumes at (x) temperature: if you fill it 3/4 full with hi-gluten bread flour using water at 36 F, then, yes, you'll break it. That would break just about any mixer.).

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Just to be contrary :)

Mixing cement is actually less work for a mixer than dough!

Nate Delage's picture
Nate Delage

After avoiding a mixer purchase for a very long time and just using stretch & fold, I recently purchased the new 7qt Kitchen Aid. It's only available at Williams & Sonoma for now. I took the plunge because of the "new motor" they claim to have introduced in this mixer.

So far, it's been a success. I've made about 10 batches of dough, usually between 4 and 5lbs of dough at a time. It's never strained during mixing at all. I've also been able to venture into some pastry work now that I have an easy way to beat eggs or cream.

I was super aprehensive of a KitchenAid after so many horror stories and was nearly set on a spiral mixer that cost 2x. But I think I made the right decision.

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Good stuff! The world likes mixers to be well used :)

With respect to KA claims of a "new motor", it's not just the motors which die, but the transmissions. Hopefully that's been adequately designed too. Given that spiral mixers are dough specialists, you sound like you've got the right machine for your uses. 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

KA had a lousy design.  They can't replace the motor and fix it.  The basic issue (I have written about this in other places) is thermal performance under load. The fan runs at motor speed; the spindle speed is proportional to motor speed; motor efficiency at low speed is low so waste heat is high under high loads; fan cooling capacity at low speed is roughly proportional to the square root of motor speed. They can't fix it with a motor change.  The small Hobart has a three-speed transmission which avoids the problem by running the motor at a fixed speed with a matched fan.  The KA plastic transmission housing was a bad idea too, but going to metal won't fix the problem either.  The Assistent and the Bosch (and others) are belt driven and put the motor and transmission in a place where they can be cooled (and have competent engineering and management).  The planetary drives are precision equipment, inherently compact and hard to cool, but it is not the transmission that overheats.  The transmission seems to eat itself under high load due to deflection of the housing and perhaps some amount of manufacturing tolerance build-up.

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Nice diagnosis, doc.... although there's no fan in my small Hobart (N50).

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Nice diagnosis, doc.... although there's no fan in my small Hobart (N50).

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Thanks Breadman_nz.  I thought there was an impeller on the motor shaft, but a fully-sealed conduction-cooled design is even better as it keeps particulates out of the motor housing.

I found your rebuild story and will spend some quality time reading it.

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

I was just about to post a link to my rebuild experience. For others browsing this thread, I'll do so: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/24332/hobart-n50-restoration-experience

Yep - I now know these little machines from the inside out, down to the last cog & bolt. No impeller, and designed like tanks (although not having designed a tank myself, I'll have to admit to this being an unqualified simile).

As a second-hand N50 can be found for less than $600, it can be discussed in this thread.

subfuscpersona's picture
subfuscpersona

Now that you know the N50 inside and out (literally), could you compare it to the older Hobart-made KA 5 quart lift bowl mixers (if you know about them also). I'm thinking of the models like the K5A or K5SS, which were made by Hobart before Whirlpool bought the KA brand from them in the mid-80s.

Thanks.

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

The N50 is a more heavily built machine, although those older KA's aren't slouches either, and will last and last. The machines share the same (or very similar) column and base and the bowls and attachments are interchangeable. The N50 has a more powerful motor as evidenced by the size of the motor itself - it's much bigger on the N50. The N50 weighs in at just over 20kg, the K5's clock it at around 13-14kg.

Most importantly, the N50 has gear driven speed control, whereas the K5A and K5SS are both variable electric current direct transmission designs. This alone makes the N50 a much more durable machine (given it has a very robust transmission and gear housing).

The original bad-mutha KA model which was the immediate precursor to the N50 was the Model G, as seen here in this thread:

http://netcookingtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18784

 

mezalkb's picture
mezalkb

I also got the KA at Williams Sonoma and have had no problem with it at all.  I do a lot of 100% whole grain bread and it never has a problem.  I have been happy with it.

teadrake's picture
teadrake

You're luckier than me I suppose.  100% whole grain bread isn't very descriptive of what you're making though, I could easily have made something whole grain and much much softer/easier on the mixer.  That's not what I was going for though :(

mike owens's picture
mike owens

for 350 plus shipping i'll sell you my dlx.  i don't use it much and it's in great shape.  mpowens1(at)comcast.net

boswin's picture
boswin

Thank you everyone for all your input.  I've made some great advances since my last post.  Believe it or not, I now have 2 mixers!  (However, I only plan on keeping one).

I exchanged my dead KA600 for a "new and improved all metal gear" ones.  I didn't want to be without a mixer for Thanksgiving.  Then later that day, I saw an ad for a used Hobart 10 qt c-100, and I bought it too!  I know I was scared to buy an old one, but it just seemed so powerful and well built, I took the leap of faith and made the purchase.  So either I keep or return the KA, they have an awesome return policy.  Or, I keep the Hobart and return the KA and apply that money towards the Hobart.  I got a good deal on the Hobart, so if I don't like it, I know I can sell it and immediately recoup the money.

I now need to find a dough hook and whip/whisk that will fit the 10 qt Hobart c-100.  They're not easy to find (the whisk/whip especially).

Are there any people out there with Hobart c-100 experience??  When I attached (the broken whisk) head to the mixer, it has about a 1/2 inch gap between the end of the whisk and the bottom of the bowl.  I imagine it doesn't mix that well on the bottom???  Anyone know any fixes for this type problem??

Thanks again for everyone's effort.  I'm still nervous if I made the right move with the Hobart, but hopefully I did.  I'm getting kind of excited at the same time too, dreaming of what kinds of things I can make with it!

 

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Fantastic purchase (the C100). If it in decent nick it will outlast you. If it needs (or ever needs) servicing, have faith that you can fix it or restore it yourself, if you're half way handy with tools. Sure, it could be expensive - Hobart parts aren't cheap - but in contrast to domestic appliances, you can kep it running for years and years. 10qt is a handy size for the home and light commercial settings.... you MAY find it a little large for 1 or 2 loaves and for whipping just a pint of cream - but that's a small price to pay (IMHO) for a buy-once item.

I'd keep the KA600 (personal finances notwithstanding), until you know that the Hobart will be OK with the smaller jobs you need it for.

Grampa Knuckles's picture
Grampa Knuckles

The Assistent prices may have gone up but still worth it.  I love my Assistent as all do. Biggest trouble here is the USA Marketing.  They keep changing the name. I did some checking and its not called a Verona.  It is sold under the Verona label but they also sell other appliances if you check other sites in Canada and Europe it is the Assistent Original everywhere but USA.  Not sure why the USA wants to add their personal label to it just makes it confusing for everyone and likely hurt sales in this country due to the confusion.  Thinking of maybe writing them and tell them stop changing the name so we all talk the same language on this machine.

If you want a good mixer and be money ahead buy it, at least you wont be sitting here in a few years hunting again.  They last forever and do everything.  Any mixer that can run this smooth and quiet with a full load is worth the money. Beats holding my breath with the cheap mixer hoping they dont start smoking half way through a batch of bread.

 

flourgirl51's picture
flourgirl51

You won't go wrong with a Bosch Universal Plus mixer. It is a real workhorse. I am currently selling them for $399.99 and free shipping. You can read more about how I use it on my website www.organicwheatproducts.com   If you want to call me I can tell you how powerful this is and how I put it to use weekly for my market baking. 

Leolady's picture
Leolady

The Hobart C-100 is a machine I bought for a local church kitchen, and they are very pleased with it.  It was purchased as a memorial to my dearly loved late mother.  It is the perfect size for larger batches without going overboard.  It also has the advantage of being able to use KA attachments like a meat grinder, grain mill, pasta makers, etc. 

I am the owner of a couple of early Hobart N50 mixers, and the two chrome KA Model G mixers pictured in the thread Breadman referred to.  They are indeed fantastic heavy duty mixers for small kitchens and overall usage.  AND, with proper research you can buy them for around $600.  Resale values for the C-100, the N50, and the KA Model G mixers is excellent.  Since I bought MY rare chrome Model G mixers, they have appreciated in value from about $400 to about $700.   That's not a bad deal for an investment of only 6 or 7 years.

 

boswin's picture
boswin

Thanks everybody, especially Leolady and Breadman for your support and encouraging words about the c100.  Sounds like it should last for a long long time.  I'll feel better once I can test it.  It only came with the paddle, and I need to use a dough hook and whip in order to get a feel for things.  I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't even test (have it mix things in front of me).  All I did was turn it on a couple of times and raise and lower the bowl!  I actually had stopped at a convenience store on my way to see the c100 and bought eggs and flour b/c I wanted to see it whip up egg whites and see it knead some dough.  Long story short, the address brought me into a deserted industrial edge of the city where there were no street lights, just lots of alley's and warehouses.  Plus it was dark out!  Being female, this all screamed run and come back w your husband bc if I get attacked, no one will hear me yell.  I ended up going in anyways into the deserted building which had a pit bull the size of a pony in front entrance.  I left the flour and eggs in the car (easier get away w/o carrying anything!).  It was a used restaurant supply warehouse w/no heat.  I didn't feel I could whip up eggs or dough b/c there was no where to clean the bowl.

Anyway, just wanted to share my craziness and the story behind the mixer.

I still have some questions about accessories, which I should maybe put in a new post:

1) Is the c100 supposed to have a 1/2-1 inch gap at bottom between whip and bottom of bowl? Have you guys created a work around, or is this just me and I have to fix it on my end?

2) Does it matter if accessories (whip and dough hook) are oem or aftermarket?  Oem is around 5 times more expensive than aftermarket.

3) If aftermarket is ok, does that mean that I can basically use anyone's 10 qt accessories?  Like if I find Globe 10 qt whip/hook, or Berkel/Vollrath/Thunderbird, etc....

3) Does it matter if dough hook is made out of aluminum?  Are oem's stronger, made out of stainless steel??

4) Has anyone ever rewired a whip?  I have the original whip w/only 4 strands left on it, rest broke off.  I've seen some places where they rewire whips.  Anyone have experience with this?  Is it reliable, and sturdy/strong/long lasting?  Or should I just buy new whip?  If rewired, should it be certain material (stainless steel, aluminum, etc) ?

 

Thank you so much for your input everybody!

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

What a great story! Ahhh - the joys of buying commercial second-hand versus domestic new :) Glad you made it!

To answer:

1) Not sure. My N50 has a small gap under the OEM whisk - about half an inch, but probably in the context of the larger c100, that's about right. The c100 isn't designed to mix small volumes - my N50 will do about 150mls minimum of cream, for example.

2) OEM are generally preferable, and yes, they are expensive. I believe they're expensive for the reason - they last. The tolerances on these machines is pretty tight, and a hook, paddle or whisk just a bit out of spec. can make quite a difference. The joys of Hobart is that they last, the relative curse is that replacement parts and accessories are - to be delicate - commercially priced. But hey, no real harm to try an aftermarket part - it may be great!

3) No. Aluminium is fine - it's plenty strong enough. The OEM hooks and paddle for my N50 are both aluminium. There is a stainless steel paddle, which is very expensive, but it's for scientific purposes and meets some sort of federal food standard which is not necessary for home use.

4) No I haven't. My whisk came with 4 tines missing, and buying a new one has shown that having all the tines is important for proper, efficient whisking performance - so it's worth doing! I suspect the cost of delicately rewiring the thing wouldn't be worth it, hence would be surprised if anyone does it. Give it a go yourself, I suppose - otherwise, see point #2 above. The whips/whisks are made of steel, not aluminium.

Leolady's picture
Leolady

Give you more detailed information about the C-100, but I am embarrassed to say that I have never actually used it.  I bought it from a commercial refurbisher and gave it straight away to the church.  It is not my own church that I attend, but is the church my maternal relatives attend.  I have never actually seen it in action, but I have gotten feedback from various relatives that they love it.

Even though the mixer came with a good whip, flat beater and dough hook, I still priced extra attachments [thinking the church might need extra ones].  I bought an extra bowl and an extra flat beater on Ebay.  The new whips have stainless steel wires on an aluminum attachment holder.  I think stainless wires is the way to go since you don't have to worry about the tinning coming off.

If you buy another company's attachment and want to try it on your mixer it sounds ok, but I would make sure they accept returns in case it does not fit or work properly.  Good luck!

flourgirl51's picture
flourgirl51

I have been baking for my farmers' market weekly for four years now and once a month in the winter using my Bosch Universal Plus mixer. I typically make 60-70 loaves of whole grain breads, about 40 loaves of quick breads ( double and triple batches) plus jumbo muffins, bars, cookies, cupcakes etc. EVERY WEEK. This is not an commercial mixer but it is serving me very well. For the price at $399.99 I find that it performs as well or better than other more expensive brands. It is belt driven so there are no gears to break and it also has many optional attachments available for it. In this economy I want people to know that there is a very reasonable but very powerful mixer option. This is why I decided to sell them- I have been using it for years and it is a real workhorse!

dwcoleman's picture
dwcoleman

I have a Bosch Universal as well and I love it.

What's the biggest batch of dough you've ever needed?  In grams instead of cups hopefully.

I got my Bosch so that I could make more bagels, 52% hydration + high gluten flour tends to kill a Kitchenaid very quickly.

boswin's picture
boswin

Please stop hijacking this thread and pitching the Bosch that you sell.  Advertise elsewhere.  Thank you.

ehanner's picture
ehanner

boswin, your harsh comment is uncalled for. She is a high volume baker that has experience on this appliance. After years of using it she decided to sell it as well. Her suggesting an alternate to the more expensive and lower power products available is a welcome comment. We are a friendly low key bunch here and generally not so quick to criticize a helpful poster. I'm sure you will appreciate this quality once you have been around a while.

Eric

boswin's picture
boswin

Hi Eric-  Point well taken.  I was quick to criticize.  I thought Flourgirl had posted many times in this forum, always promoting the Bosch, without really responding to peoples posts or questions.  I'm not sure where I got that notion b/c I just did a search and don't seem to see the posts I was thinking of.  I've been reading and researching mixers, and read a lot of posts on this forum.  I must be reading a lot of the posts over and over, because some how I got the wrong impression.  I think it's time for me to back away from the computer and get a good night's rest.  Is it possible to delete posts on here??  :0)

So long story short, I'm sorry for how I responded.  Sorry Flourgirl!

flourgirl51's picture
flourgirl51

Boswin, I just thought that you were looking for information about a mixer that was well built without costing a fortune. I used to use a KitchenAid Pro 6  but it just couldn't handle much in the way of heavy dough without overheating. My neighbor is actually the person who originally told ME about the Bosch. He has five kids and they bake weekly for their family and he told me how well the Bosch performed for them.  When I started selling bread at our market I bought the Bosch Universal Plus mixer and as I stated earlier it has performed extremely well with the heavy loads ( about 15 lbs of whole grain dough at one time) that I use it for over and over each week along with the double and triple batches of quick bread doughs and other batters that I mentioned earlier. This machine has performed so well for me that as Eric said, I decided to sell them. If you knew me, you would know that I love to teach many aspects of not only baking, but food preservation, educating people about healthy foods and much more. I have been baking since I was 11 years old and was always a confirmed Kitchen Aid user until they started making them with plastic gears and I started doing heavy production work. I am now 60 so I have learned a thing or two about baking over the years and when I get excited about a gadget or product I like to spread the word. Anyway, I hope that you find the machine that you are looking for like I found mine. 

Grampa Knuckles's picture
Grampa Knuckles

Love my Assistent. Once we are willing to splurge and buy a high quality mixer we know its worth it. If you are lucky you love what you chose and can not imagine why everyone doesn't want the same thing. I am a DLX/Assistent fan for the size, durability and versatility of it plus it looks great on my counter! Whether I want to make a batch of bread with 20 cups of flour or 1 cup of meringue the machine does it all, nice and quiet without straining. Remember if you are looking for large commercial mixers most of them won't handle that single egg meringue. All I suggest is search, search and research, then spend as much as you can afford in the long run it will be well worth it. One Assistent may be costly now but lasts a life time which makes it much cheaper than buying 2 or 3 cheap ones over a number of years and still never having a decent mixer. Love it that I can now get attachments in Canada noticed on there Canadian warehouse site that you can get cookie whips must order some for Christmas baking. Happy baking and good luck with your decision.

tantica's picture
tantica

Can DLX handle a recipe of 2 cups of flour? I imagine using the roler rather than the hook would be OK.

I just got the Bosch Universal and thinking of changing it. I kind of ignored the warnings about the small quantities.

They are real. My next choice is DLX but before I spend the money I need some advice.

Can anyone share their experience with the small quantities in a DLX aka Assistent aka Magic Mill aka Verona?

Gosh they like changing names.

Thank you in advance from a newbie.

Grampa Knuckles's picture
Grampa Knuckles

Yes I do do small batches with my Assistent/DLX.  I make small doughs for a pizza crust or foccaccio occassionally and it works fine.  If it seems like its not working things properly just cut through it with the scraper that along the side of bowl.  Not sure what I mean, you can check out videos at the Canadian site www.assistent.ca they have videos with each attachment which is nice I think they come through You tube.

As for Verona I checked and that is just the company that sells them but they are called an Assistent all over, I sent an inquiry to the manufacturer and that is the reply I got.  To bad USA has to add Verona to name be simpler if they left it like everyone else.

Good luck with your decision.  Buy whats best for you but I would never trade my Assistent.  Just 2 of us here now so often using it for small batches no problem.

teadrake's picture
teadrake

I had a similar predicament as you, and I personally tried the new 7qt KA they sell at Williams Sonoma, which goes for about $580 after tax.  Not worth it, breaks just as easily as any other mixer they make now.  They do use a different motor design (I took off the lid to look), and the motor didn't heat up nearly as fast as the 5QT KA Pro-HD would.  And the transmission was quieter as well.  But the transmission still heated up just as fast, and broke on me after barely a month of light use (2 times a week).  Something in the gears must have snapped, because the pin where you attach the hook/whisk/etc. would wobble and it was leaking a little grease out of it.  It happened making a 65% hydration lean white wheat dough of approx. 2.5lbs.  Should have been well within it's "10 cup whole wheat flour" rating for such a catastrophic failure :(  Wishful thinking.

Waiting on a 'Lux that should arrive monday. 

Leolady's picture
Leolady

I am glad somebody has a review on how well it works.  I somehow expected that it would not hold up because I did not trust the "horsepower" rating that KA gave it.  In my estimation, KA grossly inflates the so called power of its mixers and and does this to fool the consumer.  JMHO

And if their HP ratings were true, then this new 7 qt mixer would be more powerful than the Hobart N50 which is 1/6 HP.  I sure didn't think that this was true, but without personal knowledge I did not want to speculate publicly.

And even if the HP rating WAS true, if the overall engineering of the mixer was not solid/durable as that of the N50, I suspected that the mixer would not be able to utilize this power without self destructing.  I guess I was right.

loydb's picture
loydb

The horsepower is meaningless if it can't apply the force properly. The KA just doesn't have the torque.

 

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Talk is cheap, torque is expensive.

Direct drive is a poor relative compared to a single-speed, geared transmission design. I don't know why KA insists on building their domestic mixtures with this design, rather than chuck some gears in there, like commercial mixers. The 7qt KA isn't cheap - surely KA could make it so that their top-end model was gear driven? Then they'd be torquing!

teadrake's picture
teadrake

The problem is that, the average person who goes to buy a mixer wouldn't understand this.  So when they see a $600 mixer with a 'measly' 300watt (just for example), and then look to the left and see the cuisinart for $300 with an 800 watt motor, which do you think they walk out the store with? 

In the end, it shouldn't make as big a difference anyways.  The mixer certainly had the power it needed, it just needed a much more sturdy set of gears. Remember, the whole 10 speeds thing was around even during the hobart era KA's.   This picture is a picture I took with the lid off before I even used the mixer, you can see that the transmission is just as small as on the weaker models, and that is entirely the real problem at this point (IMO).  The switch to a DC motor is pretty good for low RPM torque.

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

...that's so cute! nice little motor tucked in there so neatly. That said, it doesn't exactly scream heavy duty or industrial to me.

Of course the big Hobart 60qt - and even the 20qt - owners will say the same thing about my N50 :)

And looking at that, you do see where the cost of commercial gear comes in - literally it's in the gears, with multiple hardened steel cogs and rods. The tumbler yoke alone in the N50 would almost weigh as much as the top end of that 7qt mixer.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

This looks like an improvement to the current design. Most likely a die-cast aluminum transmission case (though it could be zinc) that is the center of everything.  The motor bolts to it rather than being attached separately to the frame, so there is a chance that the gears maintain their alignment.  Cooling is still going to be an issue, though the correct DC motor would help a lot.  While it might put out more torque at low RPM than the old design, the electrical efficiency is hard to guess as a function of speed without the motor manufacturer's spec sheet or some measurements.

teadrake's picture
teadrake

Actually, and you can check this in a store yourself if you can lift the mixer over your head, the mixer is only rated for about 500Watts continuous.  It does have a 900Watt motor, but that is peak and fueled in bursts by capacitor, much in the same way that modern home theater receivers work.  And it's not a bad idea if they spent time beefing up the transmission instead of making it quiet.   The demand is not constant on the mixer (unless the bowl is really-full) for how much power is needed to knead the dough as it gets spun around, so it doesn't have to be continuous power.

1/6 hp is pretty low, only about 120-130watts.  The difference is really that it always runs at full power, regardless of speed, because the transmission is gear based.  The KA can put out 900Watts, but it does it at speed 10 running full tilt, because that is the only time the motor spins at full speed.

flourgirl51's picture
flourgirl51

The KA is gear driven whereas the Bosch Universal Plus is belt driven. I think that this makes a difference in the performance of the machine.

boswin's picture
boswin

Hi Everyone-

I think this has been such an interesting thread.  I hope other people who are at a similar cross-roads of needing a new mixer,  find this thread!  By the way, I did have an eye on the Williams Sonoma KA, and am sorry to hear it didn't perform up to par, but I was enormously curious to read the outcome.

So, I last night I used the Hobart c-100 for the first time!  It came with the paddle, so I came up with the perfect excuse to use it- need to make some chocolate chip cookies!  Although my husband doesn't think that's an excuse, he depends on the cookie dough in the fridge to get his sugar fix :0)  Anyway, using the machine was a fascinating experience.  I was nervous and excited all at the same time, because remember, I kind of - sort of didn't really test it before buying it.  Let me tell you........ this thing is awesome.  It's incredibly powerful!  I found myself apologizing to the mixer for using such small quantities!

FYI- I've had my new kitchen aid pro 600 in the box, in the kitchen, on standby in case my experiment went south.  Looks like that puppy is going to be returned after Thanksgiving.  Thanks again everyone!

Niccolo Donzella's picture
Niccolo Donzella

I know this is coming in late, but I hope it may be useful to people reading this thread.

As in the case of so many others, my KA Professional 610 met an early demise (under four years and with one warranty replacement early on for oil leakage) and I started a quest for a replacement.  I came upon this among many other threads, and your initial questionabout whether there was one machine to do the job  finally brought me clarity about how to approach replacement.

I started out in anger toward KA.  Mainly, I had used it for pasta and bread, but also for running the pasta attachments (once or twice a week for the roller/cutters, monthly or less for the pasta extruder) and meat grinder (once or twice a month) I had acquired.  I needed a replacement that would stand up to bread, but also to accept the attachments, in which I have a not insignificant investment.  That meant Hobart N50 or Globe SP5, as the only two machines I know of with a #10 hub.  I came upon Globe comments indicating problems with overheating and unsatisfactory mixing, and Hobart comments indicating that while it is more powerful than the KA it is not really well-suited  for bread. (One commenter advised that using it for bread would eventually burn it out.)   I found a good price on the Hobart from a web-based restaurant supplier, but was advised that home use would void the warranty.  The idea of paying that kind of money for a warranty-less mixer that at least one person was warning could burn out didn't seem an attractive proposition 

Back to the drawing broard, which is where your comment gave me clarity.  In my case, there isn't one machine that can do it.  So I stopped looking for it.  I owned up to the fact that, as a KA owner, I had stopped paying any attention to the manual isntructions.  I ignored the speed level 2 limit for use of the dough hook.  I used the machine for a Cook's Illustrated recipe for pizza bianca -- speed 10 for 10 minutes. I ran whatever speed felt right. I just assumed it was bullet-proof.  It isn't.

For bread and dough, I am getting a DLX, which so many people seem to love.  I found a great deal at Costco on a 575 watt KA  - same machine as the one that died with a few cosmetic changes and cheaper accessories that is completely campatible with the accessories, bowl, etc. from the old one.  I even opened the tops of both units to be sure they have the same metal transmission, etc.  The Costco KA (called a Professional 550 -- the departed was a 610 Willioams-Sonoma model with a 590 watt motor), will run the pasta and grinder attachments and do light duty.  Total price for two macines was half the price of the Hobart N50, and I don't have to sacrifice my investment in KA attachments. Success will dpend on (a) my discipline in using the KA only for its assigned role, and (b) the KA's ability to run the attachments without dying.  Put another way, time will tell whether the problem is bread or anything requiring torque.  I note in this regard that the Pasta Plus extruder instructions specify speed 10 for certain types of pasta.

Thanks.

Grampa Knuckles's picture
Grampa Knuckles

Assistent (DLX)... Does it all big and small with 7 L or 3.5 L bowls and 4 mixing tools included Hook, Roller, Beaters and Whips.  Nothing it can't handle in my house whether cooking us for the two of us or when kids all gather around.

 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Motor life <=> thermal performance.  Gear life <=> torque demand

High speed is not necessarily a bad thing.  The motor works better at higher speeds and with the two stages of transmission reducing the speed, one of the worst places you can run a KA is at speed #1 or #2 simply because the cooling is not as good and the motor is less efficient so there is more heat to get rid of and less capability to get rid of it.  This is one result of the relatively compact package that the KA mixers are constrained to.  The smaller ones have less powerful motors and thus can't produce as much heat, don't drive the gears as hard, and (IMHO) have longer life.  The current design isn't that much different from the old Hobart design except that there was less competent engineering (or too much demand for low cost and insufficient demand for quality).

In ten years we will know if the newest "DC" motor design actually addresses either issue.