The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Can someone help with none sourdough yeast and bba and crumb size?

grendal's picture
grendal

Can someone help with none sourdough yeast and bba and crumb size?

I read an article on here, where a gentlemen made a nice loaf with a big crumb using a wild yeast starter. I read the article but am still unsure how to do it. I've never made yeast starters before. I was hoping someone could help me understand the BBA process.

 

I am planning on making 3 breads for this thanksgiving. Streptikos Artos, a roman plaited bread, a Hapalos Artos, a roman soft bread, and a Boletinos Artos a roman mushroom bread. They are family recipes but very vauge on the yeast starter I know it is made from wheat, my plan was to try to use wheat berries to make a yeast starter that would end with a soft crumb bread. Expecially for the Hapalos Artos. Wich is supposed to be very soft and have a large crumb. My thinking was to be as traditional as possible, and I happen to have some good wheat berries, they are hulled though, so I am not sure they will contain yeast. I was planning on sprouting them. I do not want sour dough, I'd like a normal none sour yeast starter. Like you might find in commercial dry yeast. 

So far I've been very confused by BBA. I think it's a book but if it is I know I probably can't afford it. Can anyone explain to me the BBA thing and how to make large crumbs in my breads?

I am sorry but I cannot give out the recipes...my nana would choke me to death.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

your chances of happening upon the perfect starter before Thanksgiving may prove difficult.  You will need time to get the starter going and then time to experiment.  But it can be done.  If you are having trouble deciding the amounts of yeast to use in your recipe, either wild or tame, tame might be easier.  All you need to really know is the total amount of flour in the recipe and use a 1% to 3% amount in the dough.  Experiment with commercial instant yeast and take into account that starters do contain a little flour and water that you may need in your recipe.   Ask nana for the details about the starter and feeding it and get her help in helping you.  I'm sure she would love to help out.  If this is a surprise for her on Thanksgiving, I would jump over my shadow and enroll her anyway as much can be learned from her and your chances of success would increase greatly and the two of you could have lots of fun!  

The BBA thing...  yep, it's a book.  Contained in it is one way to make a starter.  There are many ways but the most important thing to remember is that starters are full of tiny living organisms, numbering in the thousands, and we want to present them with ideal growing conditions to increase their numbers to the point of helping us lift dough to make bread.  There are many ways to get a starter going.  You don't need to purchase The Bread Baker's Apprentice to make a starter.

Your grain berries are just fine.  I suggest starting out with unsweetend pineapple juice (a couple of small glass bottles) and some milled or crushed berries and combine them and let them sit in a semi warm place above 75°F (24°C)  You also don't want them too warm.   Mix up about an ounce of water to a spoon full of fresh ground flour and let the flour soak up the juice for a half hour, give it some more OJ so that it just starts to get runny.  Cover loosely with something and ...   Then go over to to Debra Wink's blog and read up on the little wee beasties (a Scottish term for little creatures one can only see under a microscope.)  (I had a Biology teacher in high school who used this expression and it stuck with me,  my dear Mrs. Burke.)

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/blog/debra-wink?page=1

Be sure to read more on in Debra's blog for there are two parts and more reading as well.   If it goes over your head...  take a break... read it again later.  (I've read it so many times!)  and ask about anything.   

Mini Oven

Nickisafoodie's picture
Nickisafoodie

And it would also be beneficial to search this site (using search box in upper left corner) under "starter", "sourdough"- which includes how to make and maintian starters, and hundreds of recipes and photos too.  These posts will allow you to research and learn by people that have been where you are.  So you never really have to buy [any] book unless you want to.  Like anything worthwhile, a bit of research and preperation goes a long way towards success.

As mini says, experiment.  Suggest trying a few proven recipes posted on this site with photos would be a good way to go before adapting your own recipes...  Good Luck!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I think you can find more by searching site for:   open crumb   or   secret to open crumb

Chuck's picture
Chuck

Using wild yeast (sourdough) has lots of advantages, and is well worth pursuing eventually. If all you really care about right now though is big holes, I suggest you do not follow the sourdough/starter route initially. Getting a very open crumb with commercial yeast is perfectly reasonable, and is done all the time. There are ways to get introduced to bread baking that don't involve so many moving parts as developing and using a wild yeast starter does. Starting simpler can be particularly important if you don't have a "kitchen buddy" to work closely with.

grendal's picture
grendal

I'm not after just large holes, I'm looking for a more traditional way that's safe for getting yeast. The dough is basically just water flour salt and olive oil, they are supposed to be left in warm weather in the sun in woven baskets. My concern with this is, I don't have 3 days for a single loaf of bread, and the weather isn't warm enough. The breads are to be left out in may and june when tempratures reach 70 degrees or more. However 2 of the breads require eggs, and I am deeply uncomfortable leaving egg breads out for 3 days in 70 degree temps. It just screams salmonella. So I was hoping to side step this process and just introduce my own wild yeast starter.

The only bread that doesn't do this, is the soft bread, wich is supposed to be left in a warm smokey spot by the hearth. Well I lack a warm smokey hearth, and I lack 70 degree days. Tonight the temprature is supposed to drop down to 34, and the current temp is 49. 

I have a small electric cold smoker that I was going to put the cultures in so they have adaquate temprature to grow. It's lowest setting I can obtain is 70 degrees. My house is not much warmer then outside. The house was built in 1789. It's very drafty and has handblown newspaper insulation. Not very productive for yeast growth. 

I was hoping to obtain a more traditional taste. The modern strains aren't anything like what was used back then. Unfortunately there is no yeast recipe for the breads, we've always used redstar yeast, but this year I wanted to move up to a nice wild yeast to capture more of the flavor that my ancestors probably enjoyed. 

Maverick's picture
Maverick

First of all, I think that you should know that "sourdough" is just a term for using wild yeast or levain. It does not mean the dough is sour. It can definitely aid in creating a more sour flavor if that is the goal. It really just helps add a more complex flavor. There are some sourdough starters that bring a more sour flavor as one of the components, but for the most part it is the technique used to make the bread that will determine the flavor.

Second of all, having used many techniques to create new sourdough starters, I highly recommend Debra Wink's pineapple juice method that Mini Oven linked above. There are several pitfalls people fall into when making a starter and this method helps to skip over the hard part. It also helps that many people here have used the technique and can offer help along the way.

Third of all, I would not wait until Thanksgiving to try to make the bread. It often takes a few tries to get it right (especially with wild yeast). One thought would be to use the starter for flavor and commercial yeast for most of the leavening power.

I am not familiar with those breads, so I can't offer any help along those lines. However, if you post the recipes and instructions perhaps someone here can help.

Chuck's picture
Chuck

Wild Yeast is a whole world; either you're in it or you're not. Once you're in, it will become your go-to method for everything.

But the start up costs are very significant - the first time involves learning a whole new style and a bunch of terminology, and having a little good luck dealing with sometimes-recalcitrant living things. What was simple a century ago may seem frightfully arcane. It can easily take well over a month before you can consistently turn out good bread. Often using wild yeast for just one bake or under a time constraint comes down somewhere between "not worth it" and "disastrous".

For one-offs, it might instead be worth investigating the concept of a "starter" made with "commercial yeast" (?!). According to the most common usage here on TFL, the very idea of a "starter" without "wild yeast" is a flat-out contradiction in terms  ...but it does work (perhaps you can find a less objectionable name:-). Many of the older standard cookbooks (the first one I found on my shelf is the Better Homes and Gardens New Cook Book) (mis)use the term "starter" to mean something made with commercial yeast.  Or perhaps these directions will be helpful.

(Or am I just being too negative and cynical here?-)

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I think that might be the answer!   (negative and cynical?  hardly!  glad you made the suggestion!)

It's worth a try and there is enough time to use a commercial yeast starter on nana's recipe and see how it turns out.  

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

Many years ago, before I learned how to make truly wild yeast bread, the recipe I followed was called French Sourdough Bread and was leavened with commercial yeast left to ferment 24 hours in a batter before mixing with more flour to make the bread dough.  I suppose it was technically a pre-ferment step but I did not know that term at the time.  The bread was good, and it would not take long to see if the technique makes a tasty version of the special bread that the OP wants to make.  The batter could be made with just water, and the eggs and other spoilable things added with the rest of the flour.

Maverick's picture
Maverick

For flavor, you could just make a pre-ferment like a poolish or biga. I would think a starter made with commercial yeast would be similar to that.

The other option is to either buy a sourdough from somewhere like King Arthur or Sourdoughs International. Or get a free one from places like NYBakers or Carl's Oregon trail. Or perhaps there is someone on the board that lives close to you that can give you some (or someone can dry some to mail out). My new starter is not old enough to send out yet, plus living in the Bay Area it might promote too much sour for you.

pratipin2001's picture
pratipin2001

 

 

starter 

STARTING A SOUR

DAY

SOUR DOUGH

QUANTITY

 

  
  

WATER

FLOUR

TOTAL

1

-

1.1

1.0

2.1

2

2.1

2.2

2.0

6.3

3

2.1a

2.2

2.0

6.3

4

2.1a

2.2

2.0

6.3

pratipin2001's picture
pratipin2001

a

The remaining quantity used to produce fresh popular bread. Starter ready for use on 4th day lacks leavening power thus .5% compressed yeast gives benefit to the dough

Best is to feed the starter for 5 days for proper flavor and taste.You can even go witha 1:1 ratio for more acidic taste a 1.1:1 water to flour ration will give much sweeter flavor.

grendal's picture
grendal

so 1 yeast, to 1 flour to 1 water? I'm going to need 45 tsp of yeast...so 1 cup yeast, 1 cup water, 1 cup flour? Yeast seems to be already alive...I see lots of bubbles in the jar.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:)  I'm not sure what you are describing with one cup of yeast or 45 teaspoons of yeast.  

grendal's picture
grendal

45 tsp is 0.93 cups, or 15 tablespoons...I went the 1 cup route easier to figure and better to have left over then not enough. That .7 cups is a buffer or to make another batch, if everything goes well. I started in a 1 quart mason jar. I'm seeing loads of bubbles.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Are you saying you combined 15 tablespoons of commercial yeast with one cup of water and a cup of flour?   If you did, you had better put the quart jar inside a bucket or sink to catch the overflow, one teaspoon of yeast would have been enough.

 

grendal's picture
grendal

wild yeast, I combined 1 cup warm water with 1 cup of a mixture chopped fruit specifically, rasins apricots and quince...I discovered apricots and rasins and quinces were around and that the yeast could of easily come from them. 

I've also started another batch with 1 cup warm water 1 cup sprouted wheat berries. I added 1/4 cup honey to each batch plus 1 1/2  tablespoon of wheat flour.

So far the fruit one is going very well lots of bubbles, not so much with the sprouted wheat.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 Take notes for each starter separately and keep track of smells and aromas too.  Honey is a sure fire way to drop the pH in the starter, flour will raise it a little, which is good because 3.9 Wiki average pH for honey might be too low by itself.  

Have you followed any of the yeast water/wild yeast water threads here at TFL?

grendal's picture
grendal

I have read them, but I am kinda trying a few different things and combining. It smells...kinda like seltzer water, but not quite...smells good kinda tempted to drink it. 

The fruit came from a neighbor, a nice chinese woman who's grand mother used to use just water and fruit to make a yeast starter along with rice flour later on after the lid pops.

The honey I am using rather then normal sugar cause honey was a well known item back then. The flour I figured would replace one article's sugguestion of malt extract. Malt being a roasted grain, I figured regular flour should do.