The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Flax & Sunflower disaster!

ml's picture
ml

Flax & Sunflower disaster!

Yikes! I started a WW loaf from Tartine today. Dough looked beautiful, until it came to adding Flax & Sunflowers. Way, way too much liquid. Disaster! I checked & double checked the amounts listed.

Could this be a print error?

Has anyone else made this bread?

Margie

 

PiPs's picture
PiPs

I made this bread once ... foul mess. The linseeds soak up most of the liquid turning into a jelly like consistency.  Dough was way to wet from memory. Remember thinking I would never use that formula again.

Phil

ml's picture
ml

I feel better, not just me.

Does anyone have a favorite Flax/sunflower formula?

Margie

loydb's picture
loydb

I recently did a version of Peter Reinhart's Multi-Grain Struan. Flax and sunflower were the majority of the seeds. See my blog entry here for pics. It came out delicious.

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Hamelman's flax seed rye from Modern Baking is a winner.

Here is a link to Hans Joakims blog where he has a link to a modified formula.

Cheers, Phil

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Add some rolled oats (they are real soaker uppers) and salt (2% of oat weight) and let the dough sit 10 minutes before adding more oats.

Next time, make the soaker only double the water of the flax by volume (one cup flax, one cup of water)  sunflower seeds don't soak up much if anything at all.  That would make it easy to reduce the amount of seeds (if one chose to)  and still come out right.

sweetsadies's picture
sweetsadies

I have been making the Tartine country bread and it has been great so I thought I would try the flax seed one and it just didn't work out well.. I don't think you are supposed to drain the seeds because he says in the recipe it will be gooey but I didn't expect it to be that jelly like!  It just seemed to be too many seeds also.  He describes the bread as moist because of this, but I just didn't like the taste or texture.  It was almost too moist when baked.  I had a very hard time shaping it and it was slippery.  I wish I would know where I went wrong.

Maybe there was something missing in the recipe?  Has anyone been successful with it? Maybe I should have tried his ww before trying this one.

Penny

Lauraclimbs's picture
Lauraclimbs

I baked Tartine's sunflower and flax loaf today and too had problems, despite only using slightly over half of the flax seeds called for (which still seemed like too many). After realizing how wet the dough had become, I decided to bake one of the loaves in a bread pan (I divided half of my dough in to 1 large boule and the other half into two smaller batards). It came out much more pleasant looking, but I still wouldn't claim it a success.

hreik's picture
hreik

Hamelman soaks his flax overnight in cold water. His 3/8 cup of flax uses 3/4 cup of water and the next morning is like a gel.  I followed that recipe and the flax addition was great.

Robertson's formulation is impossible. The flax has to have time to absorb the water. I think there's an error, either printing or formula.  Glad I found this thread as I was tempted to make the bread.  I might still only with an overnight cold soak.

hester

rizzo47's picture
rizzo47

I've made this one several times.  I don't agree that the recipe says to pour the water over the seeds through a strainer.  That said, it's just a blob that can't be shaped.  I plopped it into a proofing basket and it turned out fine.  I also put it in a loaf pan for the final proofing.  This worked out well.  I think there's an error in the book. 

rizzo47's picture
rizzo47

The "same" recipe is in Tartine Book No. 3  However, the recipe in Book No. 3 only calls for about 1 cup of flax seeds and one cup of water for the flax seed soaking. This should probably solve the problem.  I've made the recipe in Tartine Bread book and it's a gooey mess.  It's good but a mess.  

Markohzz's picture
Markohzz

I followed the recipe with only minor adjustments to dough handling / cooking times and was pleased with the results.   Yes it was very hydrated and was a challenge but no need to drain or reduce flax seed amount.  The flax seeds I used completely absorbed the 4 cups of water and was a gooey pudding.  Also be sure to use the "whole wheat" bread recipe.  When I did the bench rest (30 minutes) I did not cover the dough.  I then powdered top, flipped it and formed ball for another 30 minute bench rest.  I was beginning to notice a skin on it and worried but figured the loss in moisture would help me to fold and basket.  The folding was tricky and sticky but was able to manage.  I thought for sure when I placed the dough blob onto a plate of sunflower seeds that I'd never pick it back up but it stayed together and COMPLETELY filled the basket.  After an overnight stay in the fridge I cooked it at Tartine 3 temps (500) for 20, then reduced to 450 for 15 minutes.   Then removed the dutch oven lid and baked for 25 minutes.   The end temperature was 205 and it rose up beautiful with a nice crumb.  The loaf is dense due to seeds, very moist and incredibly tasty / addicting.  Hang in there when you bake high hydration bread.  Did Chad make a mistake or did he put a challenging recipe in to test your limits / abilities.  You have to adapt to perfect.

 

golfermd's picture
golfermd

I've looked on Amazon and there are several bread authors with "Tartine" in the title. Which author, or full title, are you referring to? Thanks...

KatinaP's picture
KatinaP

To golfermd - This is the book people are referring to: http://www.powells.com/book/tartine-bread-9780811870412

I made the Flax & Sunflower Seed variation yesterday - before I read this thread. It turned out pretty good despite the flax gel situation. I probably won't make it again but I'm happy I stuck with the recipe as written, at least for the first time out. 

Pic top left after flax and seeds were added. Top right is before the preshape. Very slack dough. Had a hard time scoring it.

Flax bread

 

ChetBaker's picture
ChetBaker

Hi, first time posting here.

 

I've just mixed in the soaked seeds to the tartine 1 recipe and I've had the same results. A horrible mess! I've added some more flour and a bit more salt and it's feeling a bit better.

I will be baking it in the morning and hope it's good! What a mess my surface is in now!

 

I really wish I looked for this post before making the batch !!!! :)

 

Thanks for the info though, it's good to know I didn't make any mistakes.

 

Chet Baker

Globetrotter001's picture
Globetrotter001 (not verified)

I was searching the web to know what I’ve done wrong with this recipe. Glad I found this thread although I think my trash bin will be full today. It’s so wet that I don’t think I will be able to shape.

 

Globetrotter001's picture
Globetrotter001 (not verified)

I thought it would be a disaster (that was during shaping) but it worked out great after overnight retard. Took  5 more min than the regular ones to reach 205F.

They are cooking now. The smell is something out of this world! 

Lloyd_Billington's picture
Lloyd_Billington

first time post here. was about ready to give up all hope after mixing in the seed soaker- knew it was way too wet even after trying to mitigate by putting it through a strainer- but the flax membrane made it impossible to strain out anything less than the water that was sitting on top of the mixture so i was left with an extremely wet and slimy dough. that being said i wasn't exactly following the recipe verbatim from the start- opted to try doing a seeded country loaf using 85/20 white to whole wheat (75% hydration, 20% leaven), and my seed soaker was 1.5 cups flax, 1/4 cup nigella seeds, 1/4 cup sesame seeds, which i added along with 1 cup toasted pumpkin seeds after the first set of turns in bulk fermentation. after i added the seed soaker i came here and found this thread and felt pretty defeated but decided to march onward after reading a few success stories. i decided that in the shaping i would use an extremely heavy hand in flouring the dough and use whole wheat to absorb as much moisture as possible. the dough was still a nightmare to work with- super slimy, wet, and sticky- but i was able to get them into the boules in reasonable shape. after a night in the fridge i baked the first in a preheated 500º oven that i turned to 450º and for 20 min lid on, then about 35 min lid off. ended up with decent oven spring and a beautiful crust and ever so slightly moist crumb but not too moist. second loaf i baked at 500 for first 20 min lid on, then another 30 at 450 lid off and that turned out really nice- not as great of an oven spring but i attribute that to less success with the shaping folds on that one. excellent crumb and crust and gorgeous nutty savory flavor from the toasted pumpkin and nigella seeds. first nigella pumpkin flax sesame seed loaf

Tommy gram's picture
Tommy gram

Looking good Lloyd, lots of excitement packed into that loaf!

DEAN HERTERT's picture
DEAN HERTERT

We are masochists for trying to make this work!

loaflove's picture
loaflove

I've added flax seeds to my basic loaf without soaking them and it turned out good.  I've attached a picture below.  Not sure if you can see the flax seeds as there weren't a whole lot of them.

Mind you im not sure how much flax i actually added but it wasn't alot . i was just experimenting and had no idea you had to soak first.  I just looked in my SD book and see a recipe where the flax seeds are soaked , rinsed ,drained then added to the dough after autolysing . I've never tried that recipe though.  In tartine, the flax seeds are added after the second turn , i think by then it's too hard to incorporate all that liquid from the slimy flaxseeds even though he says to use your hands to squeeze the seeds into the dough. My dough is pretty tight already after the 2nd turn.  so    it makes sense to add it after autolysing instead  because the dough is still shaggy and can soak up liquid and it's easier to squeeze them in with your fingers.   Another point i wanted to make was, what if you increase the hydration of your recipe and skip the soaking?
Lloyd_Billington's picture
Lloyd_Billington

made it again but with a new seed soaker ratio- did 3:4 seeds to water by weight and it turned out good. much easier to work in the seeds and it wasnt a sloppy wet mess. still on the wet side overall but getting closer for sure. 

loaflove's picture
loaflove

When I'm feeling adventurous, I will try it without soaking using the amount of seeds the formula calls for.  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:)

loaflove's picture
loaflove

You're my hero, Mini

Walter D's picture
Walter D

This is a bread I bake pretty regularly. It is my wife's favorite.

AP Flour: 500 grams
WW Flour: 165 grams
Rye Flour: 20 grams
Water: 555 grams
Leaven: 200 grams
Mixed seeds (Sunflower, chia, flax, sesame): 145 grams
Salt: 16 grams

I mix the flour and seeds together dry then add the leaven and water. After about 45 minutes I add the salt.

I'm sorry I don't have any pictures of the finished loaf. I'll try to remember to take some after the next bake if someone would like to see the result

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Excellent! I'll try that.  Sounds healthy.  That would make 2 loaves right? I imagine it's a tight crumb? yes would love a pic at your convenience. 

Walter D's picture
Walter D

Yes, that makes two loaves.

Walter D's picture
Walter D

Here are some pictures.

loaflove's picture
loaflove

absolutely gorgeous! can we have a crumb shot please?  i will halve the recipe and try one loaf first

Walter D's picture
Walter D

I'm sorry I'm not very facile with adding pictures and editing. Here is the crumb shot.

Benito's picture
Benito

Beautiful loaves Walter, well done.  Bet they are delicious with those seeds, you can’t beat a seeded bread in my opinion.

Benny

Yyl111's picture
Yyl111

I used the exact same measurements as mentioned in book 1. The only thing I did different was to put it in the fridge after the bulk fermentation for 1.5 hours before shaping. Also did the proofing in the fridge overnight. The dough was holding up.

Hope this helps. 

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

I make the sunflower flaxseed loaf from Tartine 3 in my bakery every day with great results. In fact, it is the easiest and stiffest dough we work with because of all the seeds. The ratio is 350g sunflower, 350g flax, 480g water. We let it sit until it soaks in and then mix it to the dough right away. We use tartine country loaf dough at 80% hydration.

TangoDancer's picture
TangoDancer

I had decided to walk through the Tartine Bread book and make all the recipes.  It was fun till I tried this recipe.  I knew something was wrong when it said to add 4 cups of water to the flax seeds and then bring all that into the inclusion.  It just didn't seem right to be adding 4 cups of water as it dramatically throws off the water to flour ratios.  But I figured they knew what they were doing.  

In my opinion, the bread was inedible and primarily because it was very gummy as others have stated.  But, as you've probably read, some people liked it and others offered fixes (such as adding rolled oats or extra flower-which I tried by the way).  But, to my taste the bread was far to gummy.  

I understand that, on occasion there can be a mistake in a cookbook.  However, in this day and age of the internet, why doesn't Tartine have an errata page on their website?  This would have helped me and others not only on this recipe, but others as well.   

 

ReneR's picture
ReneR

IMHO, recipes should be used as guides and adapted in use. There are so many variables in making even the most basic loaf of bread (quality of local flour, humidity of local flour etc) that one has to always use some intuition .

Having said that, once I figured out how to use Petermann's data for calculating soaker hydrations, incorporating seeds and grains has become a much less fraught task with my SD breads. But that doesn't really count as a recipe.  I would use hydrations based on my own calculations using that data rather than follow a recipe blindly. 

TangoDancer's picture
TangoDancer

Rene,  I agree with you that intuition plays a part in the decision making.  I had a sense that the water hydration wasn't looking right and should have done a search after that initial mental question mark.  Thanks for the pointer to Petermann's calculations.  I'll have to study that and give this effort another try. 

Pris's picture
Pris (not verified)

I haven't heard of Tartine, but my first try with flax seeds was a big fail.  I added the flax seeds with the other ingredients and they got nasty goopy, and disturbed the water content so the loaf was a fail (thank goodness for toasters and butter, right? lol)  The next loaf, I made the dough as usual and kneaded in the flax seeds before the final rise in the pan - perfect!  It might not work for the Tartine loaf, but flax is great if you don't give it time to soak up liquid and become gelatinous.

Pris's picture
Pris (not verified)

While rummaging thru my sprouting seeds today I remembered sprouters have info about flax:

Mucilaginous seeds such as arugula, chia, flax and cress naturally produce and excrete their own liquid (mucus) and should not be soaked prior to sprouting. Harvest flax sprouts like wheatgrass, clipping them from the root base which is known to be mucilaginous with a notorious “fishy” smell due to the high omega-3 content.

Mucus  :-p  … I’m totally ok making bread without soaking the flax first.

But I’m all about raw – pasteurizing nuts and seeds gives them an “off” flavor and causes them to go rancid very quickly, and roasting destroys nutrients. Pasteurizing is done quickly and at low temps, but I wonder if roasted flax seeds would be not mucilaginous. Maybe that is the key to this recipe – could the author have used toasted / roasted flax seeds and they don’t make a slimy mess?

Abe's picture
Abe

Will turn the water mucilaginous and will make the dough sticky but it isn't present in the baked loaf. Hamelman's Five-Grain Levain and Seeded Sourdough both have soaked flaxseeds and they are lovely recipes. 

And flaxseed added to non glutenous flour breads, like buckwheat, helps as a binder. 

I wouldn't toast the flaxseed but sunflower seeds toasted, in bread, is really nice.