The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Bread rolls feel a little 'heavy'

ActiveSparkles's picture
ActiveSparkles

Bread rolls feel a little 'heavy'

I have been trying to perfect a soft roll recipe. Very basic mix-

500g bread flour
7g yeast sachet
50g butter
300ml water
salt

Now, I have got it looking and tasting amazing! Just one thing that I would like to tweak and am unsure on how to do so. The rolls have a heavy feel in the mouth. I dont know quite how to explain it, just a slightly dense texture to them that I would like to soften up. I was told that maybe I was overkneading, so tried cutting down on time, not being so heavy handed with them. But it hasnt really made much difference.

As I said, its not a major issue. Just more of something I would like to be able to adjust for this and other recipes I have been trying.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Charlie

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

As in cakes, density = too much protein. Try going to a lower-protein flour like AP and see if that helps.

ActiveSparkles's picture
ActiveSparkles

appreciate it! will give it a try

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

also maybe a higher hydration - if you knead by hand, set aside the last cup of flour or so, and add that in very small increments (by the tablespoon or so) until you just about reach a consistency that you can handle. Try and make your dough a little on the sticky side, just so that you can still keep kneading it.

A longer final rise may also help, try and wait till they barely spring back when pressed (i.e. almost fully proofed) before you put them in the oven. Also be more gentle when you punch down the dough, so that you don't totally deflate it but keep some air inside.

hope this helps

ActiveSparkles's picture
ActiveSparkles

Appreciate the suggestions.

The longer final rise, how long would you suggest? I have been giving them 40 minutes (as per the recipe I have adapted from).

Again, thank you :)
Charlie

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

erm - i'm afraid to say the wrong thing as I'm not that much of an expert you see... it also depends on the ambient temberature. My kitchen is usually around 20-22 C (68-71 F) and even if my dough was well proved before I shaped it, I can safely leave it for an hour for the final prove. I think your best bet is not the timing per se, but the poking test (or maybe someone will suggest another technique) - if you poke it and it barely springs back, and say 30 seconds later you can still see where the dent was, it's fully proofed.

ActiveSparkles's picture
ActiveSparkles

ok, will do that :)

Not sure on my temperatures in my kitchen.

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

just remembered,

if you're increasing final rise time it's a good idea to adjust the bulk proof time accordingly. Especially as a dense texture may sometimes result when dough overproofs during bulk rise, you then deflate all the air while shaping, and there's little yeast power left to puff up again during final rise and the oven spring. That's certainly happenned to me a couple of times. Although in my experience, commercial yeast tends to have much less of a problem with losing oomph towards the end than the more delicate sourdough.

So, if you don't know the temperature in your kitchen, try shortening your bulk rise by say 15-20 minutes and add that time to your final rise.

jcking's picture
jcking

Charlie,

Try adding the butter at the end of the mix so the flour has a chance to absorb more of the water.

Jim

ActiveSparkles's picture
ActiveSparkles

That is definately something I will try! great suggestion, appreciate it.

 

Thank you,
Charlie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the ferments will be longer but bread flour can take it, can take long ferments and it might improve the texture.     Try just a pinch of yeast and let it bulk rise 8 hours.  (if you dare!)     :)

ActiveSparkles's picture
ActiveSparkles

I have just tried a batch using plain flour, but will definately keep that in mind for my next attempt. Appreciate the tips!

Out of interest, purely your opinion I am asking.
I have 3 different types of yeast at my disposal, and I was wondering if you thought it would make any difference.
Sachets, fresh yeast and dried. Have actually not tried fresh yeast yet on any bread.

Thanks,
Charlie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I normally use sourdough then fresh yeast if I can, then instant (sachets) (there's always one hanging around, I don't use enough of it to warrant buying bulk instant) and last but not least... I'm not too sure what "dried" yeast is.  

You will like fresh yeast, either crumble with the flour between your hands or squash the sugar into it with a fork and give it a few minutes to liquefy, either way.   

Your welcome!

ActiveSparkles's picture
ActiveSparkles

Dried, just have to dump it in some water wake it up :)

Stinks to high heaven though, try to avoid it at all costs.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

So why do you keep it around?     

ActiveSparkles's picture
ActiveSparkles

haha sorry, may have misled you there. Its just a smell I dont like very much.

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

Hi there.... here is my soft roll recipe in bakers percentage, using a sponge starter.

Sponge:

Flour 50%, Water 64%, Yeast 1%

Mix these together and leave to rest in a bowl covered with cling film (peirce cling film) at room temperature for 3-5 hours until very bubbly.

Final Dough:

Sponge + Flour 50%, Yeast 2%, Salt 2%, Sugar 2%, Milk powder 4%, Fat/Shortening 6%

Mix remaining ingredients for final dough with the fermented sponge, knead for a good ten minutes using stretch and folds to develop the gluten.

Scale at desired weight and then shape into rolls....

average proof time 1 to 1 1/2 hours

Bake for 15 mins at 220 degrees celcius.

 

 

 

ActiveSparkles's picture
ActiveSparkles

once I have deciphered and converted that lot (very new to the bakers percentages and such) I would certainly like to give that a try. Thank you for taking the time to post that.

Charlie

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

Using the 500 g of bread flour in your original recipe, his recipe would be:

SPONGE.

250 grams flour (~2 cups)
320 grams water (~ 1 1/3 cups)
5 g yeast (~1 1/2 teaspoons active dry; ~1 1/4 teaspoons instant yeast)

  • Mix these together and leave to rest in a bowl covered with cling film (pierce cling film) at room temperature for 3-5 hours or until very bubbly.

FINAL DOUGH.

Sponge + 250 g flour (~2 cups)
10 g yeast (~3 teaspoons active dry; ~2 1/2 teaspoons instant yeast)
10 g salt (~1 1/2 teaspoons)
10 g sugar (~2 1/2 teaspoons)
20 g milk powder (~8 teaspoons)
30 g fat/shortening (~2 tablespoons butter, unsalted)

  • Mix remaining ingredients for final dough with the fermented sponge, knead for a good ten minutes using stretch and folds to develop the gluten.
  • Shouldn't there be a bulk fermentation step here?
  • Scale at desired weight and then shape into rolls.
  • Average proof time 1 to 1 1/2 hours.
  • Bake for 15 mins at 220 C (420 F).
Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

How do you mean when you say bulk fermentation? I'm new to that....

Obviously the 1 to 1/2 hours is the "proof" time of the final dough before bake?

 

Thanks

 

ActiveSparkles's picture
ActiveSparkles

I think he means you need to let the rolls rise again (I think thats what fermentation means, as opposed to proofing) before baking. Think! by no means sure.lol

Charlie

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

First rise is bulk fermentation, when the entire batch of dough is allowed to rise altogether.

The second rise, usually called proofing, comes after you shape the dough, when loaves are allowed to ferment individually, as opposed to one big mass of dough.

You'll find both in most recipes, but I can see how a production recipe (like the baker's percentage one) you gave could just skip it, accepting the flavour development of the sponge as suffficent. I'd add a bulk fermentation stage (first rise of the whole mass) of about 60 minutes, or until the dough doubles in size.  

ActiveSparkles's picture
ActiveSparkles

ahhh I see! Sponge is the term for the soaked ingrediants at the start. Appreciate your help with that. :)

Charlie

ActiveSparkles's picture
ActiveSparkles

ahhh I see! Sponge is the term for the soaked ingrediants at the start. Appreciate your help with that. :)

Charlie

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

Just been reading up on bulk fermentation... means to let the dough ferement in "bulk" before shaping and final proof.

My questoin is though, what is the purpose in the bulk ferementation? does it need to be done?

and yes, that is the sponge :-)

 

Cheers

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

If you skip bulk fermentation, y0ur dough will have little development in texture or flavor, just dense, flavourless loaves with an undeveloped crumb structure (inside of a loaf is the crumb, outside is the crust). The loaves will taste of little more than flour and salt, as yeast, bacteria, enzymes, etc. have had no time to ferment and catabolize the flour.

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

I have done the "bulk ferementation" as i know it now, once before. I found that the dough was difficult to mould and seems spent when moulding, resulting in air bubbles in final proof, then blisters once baked.... any tips to overcome this issue?

Cheers

 

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

You gave a baker's percentage formula for bread rolls, but you don't know what bulk fermentation is?

Call me confused, as only advanced baker's used baker's percentages and, yet, bulk fermenation is an elementary step.

What gives?

thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

[double post]

Matt Edy's picture
Matt Edy

I just didn't realise it had the name "bulk ferementation", never used it when using a sponge starter, obviously have done when doing a straight dough method. I'm not an advanced baker, im quite amateur to be fair, most of my knowledge comes from working in a supermarket bakery where commercial improvers are used (hence, me being novice), and online research.... so that kinda says it all really?

So any tips to overcome the shaping/moulding problems i encounter?

Thanks!