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Submitted by neeraj2608 on September 15, 2011 - 11:40am Whole Wheat Bread Raw from BottomHello all, This is my first post on The Fresh Loaf. I've been a regular (unregistered) visitor to the site for a couple of months and I've learned a lot about bread from these forums, so a quick thank you to all you helpful people out there. Anyway, here's my problem: no matter what I do, my bread always comes out slightly raw at the bottom and the lower halves of the sides. I've been baking bread for a couple of months now. I bake whole-wheat bread because it's healthier. I've baked only six loaves up until now so I'm still very much a novice at this. I would appreciate any help you folk could give me. I've searched the forums for answers to my questions but none of the information seems to apply (exactly) to me. I will now attempt to provide details usually asked of people on these forums in order that they can be helped better. Sorry if it makes the post too long. Please feel free to skip any section if you so wish. I will describe first, the recipe, second, the equipment I use (including my oven) and thirdly, my baking results and problems. I've included photos where (I thought they were) necessary. I. Recipe: A. Ingredients - I use a simple (not enriched or anything) bread recipe since I'm only starting out. I usually bake a single 500g loaf at a time. These are the ingredients I use:
In terms of volume, I use 2 cups of water to just over 6 cups of wheat. However, I always measure the ingredients by weight just to make sure. B. Methods - 1. Proofing the yeast: I warm the water till it's slightly uncomfortable to touch, then add the yeast and the sugar (or honey if I have it). Then I leave this mixture for about 10 minutes. 2. Making the sponge: Once the yeast has proofed, I make a sponge. I add an equal amount of flour to the yeast and water mixture and stir it till it forms a gooey paste. So, if I'm using 300 ml of water (2 cups), I put in 300g whole wheat flour (just under 4 cups) and stir it (I add the remaining flour in the kneading step). Then I leave this mixture to double. Since I usually add only 1tsp of yeast (half of what most recipes online call for), it takes a long time (max. 6-8 hours) for the sponge to double. I don't place it in a warm place, just an area of the kitchen that's draft-free. If you're wondering why I don't add more yeast, it's just because the dough smells too strong for me if I do (I've got a very sensitive nose). 3. Kneading: once the sponge has doubled, I slowly add in the remaining flour (about 200g or 2.5 cups) while kneading the dough. I do all my kneading by hand because I don't have a bread-maker (and it's more fun getting your hands dirty! :) ) I knead for about 20 mins till the dough is smooth and somewhat shiny. I also use the windowpane test and the finger-poke test to tell that the kneading is done. 4. Second rise: once the dough is ready, I make a ball, stretch it and pinch the sides down under the bottom, coat the entire surface lightly with oil to prevent it from drying out. Then I leave it to double in size. This usually takes about 4-5 hours to happen (probably because of the small amount of yeast I'm using). Again, no special heated environment, just a draft-free corner of the house. 5. Shaping: once the dough has doubled, I knead it again for about 10 minutes. I've read conflicting advice on kneading at this stage. Some people say kneading at this point will de-gas the dough and prevent it from rising but I knead it all the same. Sometimes, I add raisins to the dough at this stage. After shaping the dough (again stretching to maintain surface tension and pinching at the bottom), I put it in my baking pan. Then I leave it for the final doubling. This takes another 2-3 hours. 6. Third rise and baking: After the bread has doubled and is peeking an inch or so over the top of the pan, I put it in the oven. I bake the bread at 150 celsius. I've tried 200, 160, 130 and 140 degrees celsius but I get the best results at 150. Before putting the bread in the oven, I preheat it to 150 degrees. The bread usually takes about 45 minutes to bake. I start getting that wonderful bread-baking aroma after 25 minutes of baking. Some notes on this time duration in point 2 of the "Results and Problems" section below. II. Equipment: 1. A pair of hands :) like I said, I do all my kneading by hand.
Now, a close-up:
3. Bread Pan: I use an aluminum bread pan to do my baking in. I've also tried baking on a flat surface but the bread pan maintains the shape of the bread (during the final rise) so I prefer to use it. Here's a picture:
III. Results and problems: 1. Sides and bottom not fully cooked (slightly moist): this is the major problem I have. Here's a picture of the bread so you can see (sorry for the mess on the table):
The sides look (and taste) slightly uncooked no matter how long I bake the bread. I usually go as long as 45 mins to 1 hour but the only thing that happens is that the crust becomes too hard. It's as if the dough at the bottom doesn't rise at all. I can't tell if it's because:
2. Crust too hard: Because it always takes so long for the sides and bottom to cook, the crust is usually hard (and a little burnt) by the time the baking is done (and even then, as I said above, the bottom and sides aren't fully cooked. :( ). Here's a picture. The crust is extra dark because I glazed it with milk while baking and the black thing is a raisin:
I've also tried glazing the top of the bread with milk and water while the bread is baking (I just open the oven door, coat the water/milk on and close the door) in an effort to keep the crust soft. However, with all the time the bread takes to bake, the crust is always hard by the time I'm done. I've read that hard crusts usually indicate a problem with the oven heating, and maybe the fact that the heating coil on the top of the oven is only about six inches from the top of the bread is a problem... Anyway, I've tried so many temperatures while baking and nothing has helped. My gut feeling is that if the sides and bottom didn't take so long to cook, the crust would be just fine. 3. Dense: Here's a close-up of the bread so you can see its texture (the black thing in the center-right of the bread is a raisin):
It's closer to cake than to bread LOL. I've read that high density is usually a result of adding too much flour but I stay strictly within the limit prescribed in recipes (water is 50-60% of whole wheat flour by weight). In fact, the bran in the whole wheat flour is usually good at absorbing excess water, so I don't feel the need to add extra water. My bread is still dense though. Can't quite explain it. Is it because I'm using too little yeast?
Well, thanks for your patience and for reading this far. If you have any advice or suggestions, I'd be most happy to hear it.
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few things
First things first: I believe 150C (302F) is too cold for baking bread. You want to bake bread @ 176C (350F) or higher! At that rate it will probably take about 45 minutes. If you're having problems with this, consider getting an oven thermometer that you can place inside your oven and check your temp.
It certainly looks gummy and undercooked. Here are a few suggestions to work to solve the problem.
Finally, next time you bake, take some pictures of your dough at various points in the process, it should help troubleshooting.
Thank you for replying,
Thank you for replying, cranbo. So, if I understand it correctly, what I have to do is:
1. Make a sponge, let it double.
2. Add flour, knead and put in in the baking pan. Let it double the second time.
3. Bake at higher temperature abt. 180 deg. C.
When you say smaller amount of sponge, I'm slightly confused. Sponges are made with equal proportions of water and flour, right? So, if I want to make sponge that's 40% of the final dough, should I:
a. use only 40% of water along with an equal amount of water? The remaining 20% (because I'm using 60% water by weight of flour in total) can be added along with the remaining flour in step 2 above? OR
b. use the whole (60%) water for the sponge but add only 40% of the flour? This would mean the flour-water ratio is now less than 1 (more water than flour). And then add all the remaining flour in step 2?
Just a quick note about temperature, I've tried baking at 180 deg. C and 200 deg. C but all that did was to burn the crust faster. The sides and bottom were still raw.
If I read your recipe
If I read your recipe correctly, here's what you have:
So, your starter is 60% of your total flour weight. I suggest trying 40% , so you'd adjust your formula as follows:
There's no rule about how much water a sponge should contain; they can contain part or all of the water in a formula.
However, based on your most recent clarifications (about the burning issue), I agree with others that your oven is likely more of a problem. I like the suggestions about non-reflective pans, pyrex and cloches, I think they will help.
I believe a major part of the problem is the oven
The loaf looks as if the sides and bottom get little heat and the top gets all the heat. I don't believe the oven distributes the heat as well as it should to bake a loaf. I also concur that 150C is too low a temp. If the sensor is at the top of the oven, it may very well reach 150C at the top of the oven but I believe if you had an oven thermometer under the grill, it would read much,much lower. I wonder if using a cloche or preheated dutch oven with a lid to hold the loaf would work better with this oven?
Doing 2 rises and a final proof may be a little too much for 1 tsp of yeast. It may not have enough oomph for the final proofing and fizzle out a bit-hence the moist,doughy interior. Try just 1 fermentation rise to double,GENTLY shape into a loaf,proof-rise to less than double (fingerpoke test time) and bake. It may work better. I believe the extra long rises are actually affecting the quality of the crumb.The top looks like it was almost broiled to a brown, while the sides of the top look like an overfermented, no sugars-left-to-brown color. Shorter rises may help that.
Many thanks for helping me,
Many thanks for helping me, clazar123.
I will try increasing the temperature next time. I've tried baking at 180 deg. C and 200 deg. C but the crust always burns. And I doubt my small oven would be big enough for a cloche. Are there any homemade work-arounds that you can suggest? Would covering the bread while baking it work because that's something I can try out...
"while the sides of the top look like an overfermented, no sugars-left-to-brown color"
That's a very insightful comment! I never thought of it that way. :) I will try only 2 rises next time.
amount of yeast in recipe seems awfully small
I'm not responding directly to the question you asked (sorry:-), but rather to something else you didn't ask, prompted by your "crumb shot" picture.
I expected to see a matrix of holes and in-between-stuff, maybe with the hole size too small and maybe with the in-between-stuff too dense. But I don't see the expected matrix at all; what I see looks like unrisen dough. (I know I'm ignoring the fact the bottom is more of a problem than the top - what I'm saying is that to me the top doesn't look too great either.)
So I recalculated the amount of yeast. In typical bread recipes, yeast by weight is about 1% of the weight of the flour (maybe as low as 0.5%, maybe as high as 2%). But with your recipe yeast by weight is only 0.2% of the weight of the flour! That seems awfully small.
If the recipe you're using was printed somewhere, check for a misinterpretation or a transcription error. Maybe they meant 1/2 packet rather than 1/2 teaspoon. (A yeast packet is 2-1/4 teaspoons, so half that would be a little more than 1 teaspoon, more than double what you're using now, but still a dubiously small amount.) Or maybe they meant 1/2 Tablespoon rather than 1/2 teaspoon. (Sometimes recipes abbreviate tablespoon as T and teaspoon as t... the only difference is upper-case or lower-case. This saves ink, but makes it awfully easy to misread the recipe.)
If you've "adapted" or "created" the recipe, try tripling (or maybe even quadrupling) the amount of yeast and see what happens.
Hello Chuck, Thank you for
Hello Chuck,
Thank you for helping me. You're right, the bread I make doesn't have the texture of bread. :)
You make a good point about yeast. Maybe I have been adding too little. Like you said, I've seen recipes calling for 2% yeast by weight of flour. So, for 500g that works out to 10g of yeast. We don't get yeast in those small packets like you guys do. The yeast I have comes in a 25g box. So, I should be using just under half of it whereas, in fact, I've been using only 1 tsp. Half the box works out to about 4-5 tsp. Here's a picture so you can see (along with a teaspoon to give you an idea of the packet's size):
One question that's been puzzling me though. How did people first figure out how much yeast is enough for a given amount of flour? My dough always doubled so I assumed the amount of yeast was enough. What I mean is, I thought that adding less yeast would only mean longer rising times. I never thought the yeast would expend itself by the time I finished three rises because I assumed that as the yeast reproduced they would increase to an amount enough for the flour (only, of course, it would take longer)... Clearly, doubling of the dough alone isn't a good enough indicator of how much yeast to use.
How did people first figure
There are some rules-of-thumb. DiMuzio talks about this in "Bread Baking: An Artisan's Perspective" (p 158).
For a lean dough @ 77F, he estimates the following percentages for peak fermentation times:
0.3% - 3 to 4 hours
0.4 - 0.5% - 1.5 to 2 hours
0.7% - 1 hour
1% - 30 to 45 minutes
These are percentages of the total flour weight included in the formula. For example, if you have 800g flour in your recipe, using 0.7% yeast would require 5.6g of yeast.
Thanks for those numbers.
Thanks for those numbers. I'll note them down somewhere for reference. :)
OOPS
I forgot you were using a sponge. While 1% yeast is typical for non-sponge methods, my Tassajara Bread Book specifies only 0.4% yeast or less in the sponge. And to make matters even worse, I calculated with only 1/2 teaspoon yeast although your ingredients list clearly says 1 teaspoon. So your amount of yeast seems right after all.
(That's what I get for ignoring the old saw about "put brain into gear before putting mouth into motion".)
As to those "packets" of yeast: very few people here actually use those, because they're far too expensive compared to buying yeast in larger quantities. I just mentioned them because a) newbies often use them and b) they're often treated as a "standard" measure.
There are a whole lot of people here on TFL who like you don't use any sort of powered device (mixer, bread machine). You're in good company. (I used to do everything by hand too, but I got old and got a bad back and don't have that option any more:-)
Whether or not to re-knead before shaping depends on the style of bread you want. For artisan style or high hydration recipes or if your goal is very large holes, not de-gassing becomes quite important. On the other hand for lower hydration recipes and if your goal is fairly uniform small holes, then kneading is probably the right thing to do (but take it easy).
If your sponge ferments and then your dough doubles and then the shaped loaves rise okay, your yeast and your water and your methodology all seem fine. So why your final product looks like unrisen dough is a mystery to me. Only thing I can think of (and this may not fit) is although your amount of flour measured into the dough remains quite reasonable, so much other flour used to keep your work surface from sticking is getting into the dough that it's throwing your recipe off completely. If so, try using either salad oil or cold water on your hands instead of flour when kneading.
Hmmmm... so if it's not the
Hmmmm... so if it's not the yeast, then it's definitely my oven that's causing the problem. And perhaps the second kneading that I do just before shaping the loaves. I'm going to try it with just two rises (1 for the sponge and 1 for the kneading+shaping combined).
Reflecting pans
have gotta go. Look for dark or glass pans that absorb heat instead of reflecting it away.
Then try protecting the top if the loaf from the heat, when the top seems brown enough, tip the loaf out of the pan and put it upside down on the rack to finish baking.
Method #2
I had a shiny oven and used black baking trays that fit into the oven.
Remove the glass turn table and place a dark metal tray (flat or upside down) on the bottom of the oven creating an insulating space to the bottom of the oven. This will attract heat under the loaf and the tray will radiate heat upwards. Place a trivet or small cooling rack on top of the dark tray and place the dark loaf pan on top of the trivet. Keep as much distance as you can from the upper coils. Bake with the fan on rotating the loaf halfway thru the bake. Use the reflective pan over the loaf if the crust should become too brown too quickly.
Mini
Wow, that's some really
Wow, that's some really creative advice! :)
I'll go shopping for dark pans on the weekend. Method 1 seems immediately doable so I'm going to try it out the next time I bake.
When you say "use the reflective pan over the loaf," do you mean place it inverted over the dark tray with the bread inside? I made a drawing of my interpretation. Is this right?
yep, that's the idea!
now tell me how you got a drawing in there! Lol :) I need to learn how to do that!
It's easier than baking
It's easier than baking bread, I can tell you! :) He he...
It's actually pretty simple:
1. Create the image on your computer (using MS-Paint or whatever software you're comfortable with. I used MS-Paint and a mouse).
2. Upload the image to some image-sharing website. I use www.imgur.com because it's really simple to use. Once you've uploaded the image, you get a URL that points to it e.g., http://i.imgur.com/23421.jpg (just an example, not an actual URL).
3. In your post, simply type "<img src="http://i.imgur.com/23421.jpg"/>" (without the double quotes at the starting and the end) wherever you want your image to appear. That's it! If you use the rich-text formatter when posting, it's even easier. Simply click the "Insert/Edit Image" icon on the toolbar and enter the image URL in the pop-up dialog.
Thanks for your help.
Great, mini!
I though that my oven would even start without the glass turntable, instead it does. A good opportunity to test a thourough bake of croissants!
use the crisp dish
I have a convection microwave oven similar to that and I know very well how the bread comes out (mine is a Samsung). First of all consider that the embedded thermostat is totally useless and that the chosen temperature will not be reached. I can advice you to pre-heat the crisp dish (the one with a gum below) for 5 minutes with micro or crisp/micro+grill (the oven must be empty), and soon after that add the bread and bake at max temperature for 15 minutes, then lower the temperature. In my case the bread came out much better.
If you can avoid using the pan and bake free form: using a set of stretch and fold the bread will rise rather than spread. If you want to keep on using the pan the overheated crisp dish below it should still lead to more uniform baking.
get an oven thermometer
...consider that the embedded thermostat is totally useless and that the chosen temperature will not be reached...
If true, this could explain why your bread doesn't look like bread, and why different temperature settings don't make much difference.
This comment got me to look on the web for "reviews" of Samsung microwave/convection ovens. I found there have been lots of models for several years, so many different models that no generalizing seems possible. I found several references to the oven function working just fine ...but I found quite a few other references to problems: outside too hot, heat very very uneven, temperature calibration nowhere near accurate, etc.
Without knowing the exact model of yours, it's difficult to say much. But given all the various problems that have been mentioned, I'd recommend you get an oven thermometer and use it to find out what temperature the inside really is. (Just remember to take the metal thermometer out of the oven before using the microwave function.)
one? two thermometers
Chuck, inside my Samsung CE107BT-S I inserted not 1 but 2 different thermometers of 2 different brands. When the embedded thermometer reports 250°C in the display the other two (analogic) read at most 170°C, and only when there's no food inside. With food inside they read at most 150°C.
I sent the oven to the assistence and it was returned misbehaving as before, even though the power consumption has gone down a bit (it's plugged to a power-meter).
I did the same measurements with a very cheap micro+grill+convection oven of a different brand, and the results were marginally better, but still the highest temperature read was 180°C vs 230°C required.
I'm sure that if people made the same tests I did they would find very unpleasant surprises! Not that there aren't ovens with reliable thermostats around, but thee are pretty rare...
please, can we just chalk it up to poor wordsmithing?
Sorry if I seemed to imply your measurements weren't accurate - I certainly didn't mean that. Nor did I mean that I thought the OP's oven temperature was accurate, what I meant was "I don't know". Sorry my poor wordsmithing turned that into something that could be taken to suggest I doubted your report.
What I intended to convey was simply that because there are so many different models, the OP's oven may behave differently, and it's worth getting a thermometer to find out for sure. Since my web searching for "Samsung microwave convection review" didn't turn up a single other instance of the temperature dial being off so dramatically, it seemed only prudent to remain in doubt about whether the OP's oven is misbehaving in that way or not.
no problem Chuck,
I didn't take your observations as a critic. I was only explaining on what grounds I based my observations and advices.
Guys, one thing to remember with temps and convection
is that even if the thermometer says 180°C, if the air is moving around (as in convection) it will heat up the loaf or food faster like a warmer temperature without a fan. So going up to 230°C with fan blowing is not really critical, it may be too hot.
Hmmm... so does that mean
Hmmm... so does that mean microwave ovens never reach the temperature they're set on when they work in convection mode? If yes, then it's troubling news indeed. Considering that 170-180 deg. C is ideal for baking bread, I doubt that my oven would even get close to that. The highest temperature on its settings scale is only 200 deg. C. :(
Btw, I have an Electrolux microwave oven. The vendor's product page is here.
It depends on the oven programed settings
Many ovens in convection will switch to a lower temperature setting in convection mode automatically especially the digital readout models. (The manufacturer assumes you are using a recipe without convection temps listed and will then lower the oven temp in order not to burn the food.) As many home bakers are not accustomed to using convection or fan ovens (the prices have come down over the years) many of the multi-use ovens installed in campers and rentals, tend to be of this type. (lowers the insurance rates) Others do not and with a setting of 200°C convection, the surface temp of the food can reach 230°C. A setting of 180°C would then be warmer. So the only way to find out is to run a known bread recipe through following the directions and see what happens. If it is the first time with a recipe, then posting the details and picture here, gives those with more baking experience the chance to offer tweaks for a better outcome. Like raising temp or lowering temp, longer bake, longer proof, shorter proof, etc., oh and rearranging the baking space for more evenly distributed oven temps.
It is good to see that microwave ovens can now take the heat of higher temperatures. They used to be rather poor conventional ovens, lacking insulation and full of plastic parts that melted. That is why so many of us older home bakers have a tough time trusting a micro that can bake. We see it melting into a lump in our imaginations. Not to mention the added fireworks involved when nuking the wrong dishes. The multi-ovens still contain enough warnings to scare everyone (the manual alone should have a homeland security rating) and the ovens are not 100% fool-proof... reading the manual is a must. As with all heat sources, healthy caution and care is advised.
So where does that leave us? After reading the little bits of information on the Electrolux link... I'm inclined to tempt you both to do some experiments for us. Like use the micro phase to raise the dough and then bake in the convection. I didn't see how high the temps can go but I know Electrolux has been making ovens for a long long time. Looking forward to hearing about the next multi baked loaves coming from your modern ovens. :)
Mini Oven
browning dish
One of the most useful technologies in microwave ovens is the crisp/crusty/crunchy/whatever browning dish.
Turn on the microwave with the dish inside in micro+grill mode and in 5 minutes time you have a super-hot dish that transmits heat to the base of the bread by conduction. It also takes a while to cool down, thus it's a very efficient replacement for a baking stone that takes at least 30 minutes of oven heated to max temperature. Say power-saving! Of course a baking pan would reduce somehow the gain obtained, but still...
Well, I baked a loaf today
Well, I baked a loaf today and I'm sorry to say the results haven't changed. Here are the changes I made to my methodology:
1. Increase the amount of yeast to about 10g (2% of flour weight; earlier I used only about 3g)
2. Only 2 rises - first rise with sponge and the second after a combined kneading+shaping step. Since I used more yeast, the rising was much quicker this time around. Both rises took about 3 hrs each to double in volume. Oh, and as a side note, I still didn't get any bubbles from the yeast on proofing. So my yeast is definitely the non-bubbling kind.
3. Remove the glass turntable and replace with an aluminum dish placed inverted over the bottom of the oven. The idea, as Mini suggested, was to create a hot plate that would better conduct heat to the bread pan than the glass turntable. Then I placed the bread pan in a plate and then covered the plate (with the bread pan inside) with a large inverted bowl -- as sort of a makeshift cloche. (EDIT: And this plate-bread pan-cloche combination I placed on the inverted aluminum dish.) I had to manually rotate the bread one quarter-turn (90°) every half-hour to ensure the heat was uniform on all the sides of the bread.
4. I baked all-through at 200°C this time. After about 35 minutes, I tipped the bread out of the baking pan and onto the plate the pan was originally on. I left the cloche on (so, basically, I removed the baking pan). I noticed that the bread still had a good bit of moisture (not only on the bottom and the lower sides like last time but even on the top). The good thing was that the crust was still soft and pliable unlike my previous attempts where the hot heating coils on the top broiled it to a crisp. However, the bread itself was quite dense with the same cake-like texture like my previous attempts. After 45 minutes, I removed the 'cloche' and gave the bread another 15 minutes under the coils to remove the moisture. I had to abort this final heating after about 7-8 minutes because the crust was becoming hard and broiled like last time. It seems my oven is either too hot or too cold! :)
Anyhow, the end result is that
a. the texture is still too dense e.g, I can't see large pores and the usual sparser texture of bread. It's quite a lot like the pictures I posted of my previous attempts
b. the crust is still soft because I covered the bread. And the bread itself is quite springy to the touch (perhaps it's easier to tell because the crust is still pliable).
I'm almost sure that my oven is falling far beneath the required temperature, especially at the bottom. Take a look at the bottom of the bread. I don't think this is normal, is it? It looks almost uncooked to me...
EDIT: Adding a picture of a cross-section of the bread, sliced through its center.
Yep, need heat underneath
Did you put some kind of spacer between the dark inverted tray on the bottom of the oven and the baking dish? Very important so that hot air can circulate under the baking pan and heat can rise off of the lower pan. If they touch when cold, they actually prevent heat from getting under the loaf. What about the browning dish that Nico mentions? That is also worth trying.
I'm sorry, I forgot to
I'm sorry, I forgot to mention. None of the utensils I'm using are dark. The plate and the 'cloche' are stainless, the inverted plate on the bottom is aluminum.
No, I didn't keep a spacer. Is that what you mentioned the trivet for? I just plain forgot. :(
Oh I forgot to answer your
Oh I forgot to answer your last question. I didn't get a browning dish with this oven. They just gave me the glass turntable and some microwave-safe plastic cookware.
Do you think placing the bread on a grill (instead of in a bread pan or on a stainless plate) would be a good idea? Should let the air flow directly under the bread. I can do it once the dough firms up a bit and the bread starts to hold its shape (about 15-20 minutes into the baking if not sooner).
Definitely raw
Neera, the bread is definitely raw, unfortunately. Is 200° the highest temperature you can set?
Yup, that's as high as it'll
Yup, that's as high as it'll go, unfortunately.
Neeraj.
I have a convection microwave
Does it come out just like mine? How much better is "better"? Sorry, I can't tell from your post.
picture
Hi Neera, this is a 33% sourdough rye bread baked yestesterday at 230°C (nominal).
http://cookaround.com/yabbse1/foto/data/5405/Foto-0435.jpg
That's actually pretty good!
That's actually pretty good! Vastly better than my bread. Thanks for posting that image.
Could low gluten be the cause?
I was surfing the Internet looking for more information on whole-wheat breads and why they might be dense. I noticed that at least some people had the same texture of bread as I do when they use whole-wheat. For example, here are two pages with pictures:
http://sikandalous-cuisine.blogspot.com/2011/05/potato-walnut-bread.html
http://www.theglutenfreespouse.com/2010/12/gluten-free-honey-oat-sandwich-bread.html
I also noticed that gluten-free breads in general have this kind of cake-like texture (e.g., the second link is a gluten-free recipe). I've read that whole wheat has low gluten and I don't add any potato starch water etc to compensate. Could this be why my bread is extra dense?
depends
Do you use soft- or hard- wheat flour? Soft wheat wholemeal flour is surely a poor performer as far as gluten development is concerned, while here on TFL I've seen countless breads made with 100% hard wheat that looked very good. Moreover those flours may have a high enzimatic activity that hampers a good growth.
You could try a test loaf with 50% wholemeal flour and 50% all purpose to see if you oven is really up to the job.
I'm sorry I don't know the
I'm sorry I don't know the difference between soft and hard wheat flour. I just use plain whole wheat flour (it's not durum wheat), not semolina. The protein content's around 10%.
Check out txfarmer blog for more on 100% WW bread
Gluten is there it just needs to be developed. Because of the tiny hard cutting particles of bran in the flour, soaking the flour is a common trick to help the gluten form longer strands in the dough. Peter Reinhart is known for this. David was playing around and posted HERE. You might try testing the oven with a simple white bread to get the set up working then apply to WW loaves.
Yes, I read about soaking the
Yes, I read about soaking the bread overnight to soften the bran but after I made the bread. I'm going to try it out the next time I bake.
EDIT: thanks for the link. This page is a new one for me.
EDIT2: thanks to you and Nico for suggesting using only all-purpose flour. I'll try that the next time and see how my oven does. I'll update the thread with my results.
Thanks for helping!
some more thoughts on overdense underbaked WW bread
Reflecting pans have gotta go. Look for dark or glass pans that absorb heat instead of reflecting it away.
I agree this is one of the major causes of the questions you asked initially. If I've looked at your pictures right, the lower portion of the loaf that has the funky crust and is undercooked is almost eactly the same height as the shallow pan you used. And initially that pan looked "suspicious" to me because I've never seen one like it (thanks to minioven though for expressing clearly my doubts that were too vague to mention).
I'm almost sure that my oven is falling far beneath the required temperature, especially at the bottom.
It's turned out to be hard for someone else to figure out if your oven temperature really is a problem; what we do know though is that convection cooking can be a little tricky the first time, and that combination microwave/convection ovens are often problematic. Despite all this, it should be easy enough for you to try nicodvb's suggestion and see what happens: "pre-heat the crisp dish (the one with a gum below) for 5 minutes with micro or crisp/micro+grill (the oven must be empty), and soon after that add the bread and bake at max temperature for 15 minutes, then lower the temperature."
I didn't get a browning dish with this oven. They just gave me the glass turntable and some microwave-safe plastic cookware.
For now, try just the temperature parts of nocodvb's suggestion without the browning dish part. But long term, I think you will need to buy several utensils. It sounds like all the stuff that came with the oven is focussed on microwave cooking, and none of it is really suitable for convection oven use.
the crust is usually hard (and a little burnt) by the time the baking is done
Cover the top of the loaf with something reflective. Maybe use minioven's suggestion: "Use the reflective pan over the loaf if the crust should become too brown too quickly." Or maybe use a piece of tinfoil.
The additional question I introduced even though you may not have exactly asked it initially, is the overall texture of your loaf. Here's my additional thoughts on that question:
...whole wheat flour (not very rich in gluten, I know...)
Not necessarily. Different brands of whole wheat are very different. Although a bread made with 100% "Joe Sixpac Bulk Whole Wheat" probably won't turn out well, some brands of whole wheat work just fine.
...some people had the same texture of bread [when they made gluten-free] as I do [making whole wheat]...
It's easy enough to do an experiment to see if low-gluten is an issue here. Try either using 75% WW and 25% "bread flour" (higher-gluten white flour), or 96% WW and 4% VitalWheatGluten.
Increase the amount of yeast to about 10g (2% of flour weight; earlier I used only about 3g)
My personal recommendation would be to go back to only about 0.5% of flour weight. 2% is the very high end of the range; 1% is more typical; and cutting the amount of yeast in half when using a sponge is also typical.
My general rule for troubleshooting is "if it didn't help, put it back the way it was". I know it's probably a little tricky to figure out exactly which parts of your experiment helped and which parts didn't; but I suspect you nevertheless have a fairly reasonable intuitive feel for it, and that the greatly increased yeast is not among the things that helped.
Thanks guys for your
Thanks guys for your excellent suggestions. I've just got a new brand of instant yeast (not active dry granules). I'm going to try it out soon with plain white flour. And yes, I'll cover the loaf with foil so it doesn't get too hard.
I'll update the thread when I have some results.
Sorry to hear you're still
Sorry to hear you're still not getting the results you want, I know how frustrating that is.
To revisit what Mini Oven suggested, it would be worth it to try baking a loaf of plain white bread to see how it turns out.
whole wheat bread raw
Do you not have a regular oven? If you try that I think your results will be much better.
Hi cranbo, msbreadbaker, I'm
Hi cranbo, msbreadbaker,
I'm sorry for not replying earlier -- I was busy with some other work and couldn't check the site.
I don't have a regular electric oven, just the microwave. And unfortunately, I don't have access to anyone else's oven either.
I'm going to try baking a loaf with all-purpose flour soon. I'll update the thread with my results when I do.
Thanks for your help.
New yeast, new bread!
Okay, I got myself a new brand of yeast. This time, it's the instant -- not the active dry -- variety. The quality of my bread has definitely improved. It's lighter and the texture is much more porous. Apart from that, I haven't changed the recipe much except for keeping in mind the superb advice all of you have been kind enough to give e.g., not to use excess flour, cover the bread with an aluminum foil to prevent the crust from burning, flour-water ratios, amount of yeast etc.
By the way, I tried baking a loaf last weekend with refined wheat flour and it came out really light and fluffy. Unfortunately, I was so impatient, I cut the loaf too soon and the bottom remained somewhat uncooked. Anyway, the evidence is long-eaten so no pictures to show you. :)
Today I baked a whole wheat bread. I took care to keep water at 70% of the flour by weight and allowed the dough to autolyze for about half an hour just before kneading it (as before, I used the sponge technique - 1st doubling for the sponge, add rest of the flour and mix it in, autolyze for 30 mins, knead it properly for about 10-15 mins until the windowpane went through, 2nd doubling, shape, 3rd doubling). I didn't soak the whole wheat overnight to soften the bran but the bread still came out okay. I'll try soaking it next time to see if it makes a difference. I did use some refined wheat flour while kneading to prevent the dough from sticking to the counter and my hands. However, I took into account that amount of flour (along with the whole wheat) while calculating the amount of water to use before starting.
The oven was at 200°C but a foil on top of the bread kept the crust soft all through.
Some pictures:
New yeast (instant, no active dry granules). This yeast works really quickly as compared to the other 2 brands of active dry yeast that I tried before. The dough doubles easily in about 1.5 hours whereas it used to take about 4-6 hours before:
Bread 1:
Thin slice close up. More porous and lighter than before:
There are still some regions in there that are slightly uncooked, so next time, I'll try not using a turntable, like Mini suggested. I'm still looking for non-reflective baking pans but the shops in this city don't stock any.
Thank you all for your help. Any comments/critiques/suggestions would also be very helpful.
Best Wishes.