The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Basic Bagels

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Tallahassee Baker Paul's picture
Tallahassee Bak...

Basic Bagels

Two questions: what happens if bagels are made with bread flour and not high gluten flour?  What should the water temperature be and why?

jcking's picture
jcking

The high G flour gives the bagel the chewy texture, otherwise it would be soft. Water temp in dough, or poach? Poach water to a boil then simmer.

Jim

Tallahassee Baker Paul's picture
Tallahassee Bak...

I was referring to the water temp in the dough while mixing... as far as the gluten, would the bagels with softer flour end up flattening?

jcking's picture
jcking

The water temp should be adjusted so the final dough temp, after mixing, is between 70-75°F. If you need more info search for "desired dough temperature".

Softer flour and it won't be a bagel, more like a soft roll.

Jim

nycbaker11's picture
nycbaker11

I believe I've read where a longer boil would yield a chewier bagel.  

 

good luck, 

 

Ray

charliez's picture
charliez

If we cannot get high gluten flour in our area, can we just add gluten to bread flour?

How much gluten?

 

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

If you don't have high gluten flour and:

If you use nationally marketed brands of flour and vwg(vital wheat gluten), or you know (pretty precisely) the protein levels of your flours, there is an online calculator available to help you blend your flours to a desired level of protein. Use it all the time, and it is the next best thing to having true, high gluten flour. It really takes very little vwg added to some of the typical national bread/ap flours to blend a decent approximation.

Use the "mixed mass percentage calculator", on the right, after the link:

http://tools.foodsim.com/

Example: If you want to "make" a pound(16 oz.) of 14.2% high gluten flour, using KABF(King Arthur Bread Flour) and Hodgson Mill VWG, use 15.55 oz KABF and .45 oz of VWG. That's barely 1.5 tablespoon vwg in the blend.

charliez's picture
charliez

Thanks mrfrost, great find!

I have been playing with the calc, but I cannot make the calculations because the drop-downs only show flours, not gluten.

Or should I use the percentages?
How much percentage of protein has the gluten? (excuse my ignorance) 100%? (it does not work with that!)

Help!!

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

There are at least 4 popular brands of vwg listed; Hodgson Mill, Arrowhead, Bob's Red Mill, King Arthur.

If you don't see these listed, you are using the wrong calculator. Are you using the "Mixed Mass Calculator"?

Even if you don't see your brand of flour or vwg listed, if you know the protein level, you can enter the protein level instead of selecting what's listed.

charliez's picture
charliez

Thanks, for some reason all the choices were not shown in Opera,
it worked fine when I switched to Firefox, must be the Javascript or something.

 

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

Looks like you may be located in Mexico, so your brands of flour(including the "gluten flour"=vwg=vital wheat gluten) are most likely not listed. You will have to research the protein levels of what you are using. Otherwise you are just back to estimating. If you are left to estimating, you may as well start with what the maker of your gluten flour recommends.

In the US here, our popular brands of vwg have from about 65 - 80% protein. The brands that I have access to are Hodgson Mill and Arrowhead, which are 66 and 65%, respectively, as can be seen by the calculator.

Hodgson uses a blanket recommendation of 4 teaspoons per loaf of bread. My own "translation" of that is about 1 teaspoon per cup of flour. The amounts you need to use will ultimately depend on the protein levels of your flour and "gluten flour".

Good luck.

charliez's picture
charliez

Yes I am.  We are not as specialized as you guys in many aspects.  We just have one kind of flour in the supermarket, so  I just selected "generic bread flour" from the drop-down menu and for the gluten is worst, I discovered it by chance in a store that sells natural products, in the bulk section, so they have no idea the level of protein.  So I will just obtain a "generic" number from the calculator and experiment until everything works as expected... thanks again!

 

geggers's picture
geggers

I have been making the same recipe for bagels from Schoolcraft culinary school for 7 or 8 years, tweaking it to use different flours and different ingredients. I'm not a professional, but a home baker, and this is what I do, and it makes the worlds best bagels. Ask my friends and neighbors! I use KA bread flour and add 1T extra gluten for every two cups of flour. If you are using regular flour, you will want to add 1T per cup of flour. Since I measure my flour, I figure it that way. The more gluten, the chewier the bagel. There is a balance between too chewy and too bread-like, so you can adjust to your own tastes. Bagels are bagels because of the chew factor....the extra gluten. As for the temp of the water I add, it's room temp to slightly warm, as usual, I rarely if ever take it's temp. Horror of horrors! I know it on feel by now, and it all works and doesn't seem to change a thing. I'm using a sourdough starter, and the bagels, after formed, proof in the fridge overnight. They are then boiled and baked in the morning, just when you would want bagels! They freeze very well, though are not so good after two days left out lying around.