The Fresh Loaf

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Doughy and "heavy" bread

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mido_mijo's picture
mido_mijo

Doughy and "heavy" bread

Hi TFL,

I don't know why my breads are doughy in the center, and heavy after baking. I've had it happen on 2-3 different recipes.

After a few hours it doesn't seem doughy, but still has a heavy feel to it.

Recipe was hokkaido milk loaf , with addition of fruit puree as a replacement for part water. I usually add butter when gluten is almost developed. I have more photos, but they're not too clear.

  • Room temp-  71 F.
  • Flour- Taiwanese bread flour/ high gluten flour
  • DDT- ~82
  • 1st Proof - 1 1/2 hr
  • 2nd Proof - Shaped then retarded, left on counter next day for 2 hours.
  • Bake in Pullman pan at 180 C @ 40-50 minutes

Thanks in advance

 

 

 

bakeshack's picture
bakeshack

Most likely, the fruit puree is the main culprit since it will not evaporate like water or milk during the baking process.   Try baking it without the fruit puree and see if the bread becomes lighter.  

mido_mijo's picture
mido_mijo

I found that sweet breads in general will come out doughy and heavy. I did the hokkaido loaf without puree and it wasn't doughy, but it was heavy.

yy's picture
yy

You said that "after a few hours it doesn't seem doughy." How long do you wait after the loaf has been taken out of the oven to slice into it? It should be given at least an hour to cool completely and for the starches to gelatinize. If you slice into the loaf while it's still warm, that could very well contribute to the sensation of "doughiness." The lightness, however, is another issue.

mido_mijo's picture
mido_mijo

I think I'll probably try and wait longer to slice it, usually I wait 30-40 minutes before tearing/slicing.

Dragonbones's picture
Dragonbones

Mido, out of curiosity, have you tried using Taiwanese medium gluten flour for recipes like this? I know the high gluten stuff is labeled "bread flour", but isn't it really too high in gluten for most stuff?  Also, I've read that high gluten flour has to be kneaded longer to fully develop the gluten. I wonder whether your use of high gluten flour means your knead time isn't adequate, resulting in a heavier loaf.  Finally, high gluten flour absorbs more liquid, so I wonder whether your hydration isn't too low, and perhaps this is being compounded by replacement of a liquid (part of the water) with something less liquid (fruit puree).

Not expert advice, just a few musings from an amateur in Taibei.

mido_mijo's picture
mido_mijo

Hi Dragonbones,

I recall you're a moderator from forumosa.com, I used to frequent the forum while I was working/learning in Taiwan. I worked at Bonjour Bakery & Cafe in Keelung a few months back. I got the idea for puree from their new line of bread they currently have. They mentioned that the bread is a German type bread with dried fruit and puree.

The label I put for high-gluten was actually what we called the bread flour when I was in Taiwan, so it kinda stuck with me so far. I was actually using Taiwanese bread flour for the recipe, since I figured that my Harvest King flour wouldn't work well. I've used either Taiwanese bread flour and Harvest King, and most of the bread I've done becomes heavy, it's mainly my enriched breads that are doughy in the center.

I may try different flours and see what I can come up with, I think maybe my kneading might be too short. But when I knead on my KA, it seems that I have to knead for about 20-30 minutes for full gluten to develop. (I

add in butter after adequate gluten development)

IIRC, I think I followed the recipe, but changed the milk

  • 540 g Bread flour
  • 60 g Cake flour
  • 10 g Dry active yeast
  • 30 g Milk powder
  • 80 g Sugar
  • 9 g Salt
  • 1 pc Egg
  • 100 g Mango Puree
  • 150 g Water
  • 150 g Whipping cream (heavy cream)
With these changes would the hydration still be low??
Dragonbones's picture
Dragonbones

I recall you're a moderator from forumosa.com

Yes. BTW if you've worked in a bakery you probably already have more experience than me on this, so take my advice with a grain of salt, LOL.

The label I put for high-gluten was actually what we called the bread flour when I was in Taiwan, so it kinda stuck with me so far.

I know the packages here say 高筋麵粉 Bread Flour, but I think the gluten level in that is suitable only for bagels, and for adding a portion of this to doughs that need a little help to support heavy ingredients or to make up for the poor gluten in, say, rye flour.  The problem with that labeling is that it leads people to think that they should automatically choose 高筋 if what they are making is bread. Personally, I think the Taiwanese 中筋 (medium gluten) is a better all-purpose bread flour. It also develops its gluten in only about 8-12 minutes plus a few stretch and folds.

I may try different flours and see what I can come up with, I think maybe my kneading might be too short. But when I knead on my KA, it seems that I have to knead for about 20-30 minutes for full gluten to develop. (I

add in butter after adequate gluten development)

I've never ever needed to knead that long to get good bread. 8 minutes in my KA plus 5-7 by hand  is about the upper limit, using medium gluten Taiwanese flour.

it's mainly my enriched breads that are doughy in the center.

I don't make enriched breads so I can't speak from experience, but I agree with others that it sounds like they might be underbaked, and perhaps you should check your oven temp. I presume you are preheating the oven adequately as well?  You might need a longer bake at a lower temp if you are finding the outsides are done before the insides. Consider getting an instant-read thermometer to help check the centers.  And definitely leave the loaf a full hour before cutting.

mido_mijo's picture
mido_mijo

Yes. BTW if you've worked in a bakery you probably already have more experience than me on this, so take my advice with a grain of salt, LOL.

 

One thing I've learned from working there is that you always try unconventional methods/ingredients no matter how preposterous it may seem. I've seen places use the strangest ingredients, and yet make the most amazing products.

 

I know the packages here say 高筋麵粉 Bread Flour, but I think the gluten level in that is suitable only for bagels, and for adding a portion of this to doughs that need a little help to support heavy ingredients or to make up for the poor gluten in, say, rye flour.  The problem with that labeling is that it leads people to think that they should automatically choose 高筋 if what they are making is bread. Personally, I think the Taiwanese 中筋 (medium gluten) is a better all-purpose bread flour. It also develops its gluten in only about 8-12 minutes plus a few stretch and folds.

I think it would depend on the brands in Taiwan, since my boss mentioned that the flours manufactured in Taiwan aren't good quality. (Their Taipei branch uses strictly Showa bread flour in their European style breads)

 

I don't make enriched breads so I can't speak from experience, but I agree with others that it sounds like they might be underbaked, and perhaps you should check your oven temp. I presume you are preheating the oven adequately as well?  You might need a longer bake at a lower temp if you are finding the outsides are done before the insides. Consider getting an instant-read thermometer to help check the centers.  And definitely leave the loaf a full hour before cutting.

 

yy, had mentioned about waiting to slice. So definitely this weekend I'll try this recipe again and update with more accurate numbers and times.

 

Chuck's picture
Chuck

Perhaps I'm being too simplistic, but "doughy" sounds to me like "not done". Not really being done might border on being a problem all the time, yet mostly not be very noticeable  ...except it really stands out on these particular breads.

Do you have an oven thermometer? If your oven actually averages 25F lower than the dial says (not uncommon), the baking times given by many recipes might be too short.

Also, do you use some sorf of thermometer to gauge the interior temperature of the loaf to figure out if it's time to come out of the oven yet? If so, what crumb temperature do you shoot for? Or do you rely on the "thump" test? Or...?

mido_mijo's picture
mido_mijo

Hi Chuck,

I baked by feel, but for this one I had to use my thermometer since I still have trouble with panned/molded breads. I use an oven temp contstantly, so it's usually 25 degrees higher than what I set. This photo is baked in a cube pullman pan, but it wasn't doughy afterwards. The other bread was plain, and this one I used rum soaked mangos w/pistachio. I'm not sure if the alcohol had anything to do with the bread not being doughy.

Home Baker's picture
Home Baker

Not enough yeast is among the possible causes listed at the SAF yeast troubleshooting guide for this problem.

'SAF Gold' yeast is recommended  for sweet doughs by some users here at the Fresh Loaf and at the Wild Yeast blog. It's described here.

mido_mijo's picture
mido_mijo

I have some OSM yeast so I'll definitely try it, and update here.