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Dough not smooth/did not double

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polkd's picture
polkd

Dough not smooth/did not double

I have made several attempts to make yeast breads.   Evey time I have made the dough, my dough does not come out smooth and silky.  It is always a rough, lumpy and layered in appearence as if the dough is being torn.  

 

Also in my latest attempt, the dough did rise but did not double.  I was using Active Dry Yeast (not rapid rise) according to the directions and let it rise for two hours.   

I'm not sure if location is a factor.  I live in Florida.

Superdooperal's picture
Superdooperal

My suspicion is that the water you used was too hot or too cold ( it should be about hand hot at the most) or there was too much salt which can kill the yeast.

polkd's picture
polkd

I used two different thermometers to double check the temperature and also use the amout of salt the recipe asked for (it asked for Kosher and I used Kisher). 

Thanks for you direction.

PastryPaul's picture
PastryPaul

Thing number 1: You switched to active dry from instant yeast. That means you should increase yeast by about 50%. While some recipes suggest they are interchangeable, they are not except in very little quantities. The rule of thumb is 1 unit of Instant = 1.5 units of Active Dry = 3 units of fresh yeast (by weight not volume).

Thing number 2:  Active dry yeast must be disolved in warm water before use, not like instant which can be just chucked in. Take the liquid that you intend to use, warm it up (100 to 110F, if it feels pretty warm to your skin it's OK)) and add the active dry to it. Stir to disolve, wait a few minutes, and continue. Do not add any extra water, use what's in the formula.

Thing number 3: You state, "my dough does not come out smooth and silky.  It is always a rough, lumpy and layered in appearence as if the dough is being torn." That makes me think it is too dry. Are you using exactly the amount of flour or are you adding some because it's sticky?

Thing number 4: Florida is hot and humid, so, unless you have the AC cranked up, it should be a perfect environment for proofing dough. Florida water on the other hand varies in degree of hardness. Try using bottled, non-fizzy water if yours is hard.

Thing number 5: I was taught that salt and yeast should never touch. Some say it doesn't matter. In any event, it's so easy to avoid the issue. Mix a bit, then add the salt. (I usually keep it wrapped in plastic wrap that I hold in one hand. Can't forget it that way)

Are you mixing and kneading by hand, or by stand mixer?

If you can, show us some pictures and/or the formula you used.

Cheers

Just Loafin's picture
Just Loafin

No offense Paul, gonna be fairly quick with this, so it's going to lack any PCness - I'm adding comment to this not only for the original poster, but for anyone that might read this through searching.

Thing 1 - 95% false. The usual math is .25, not .50, although both are moot due to the next statement. In a normal home recipe for one or two loaves, they are in fact 100% interchangeable. All the difference will be is a very slight difference in the fermentation time, and we're talking like maybe 10-15 mins. Thing 1 cannot account for a 'disaster' bake.

Thing 2 - 100% false. Active Dry does NOT need to be hydrated before adding to any recipe. It is recommended if you have reason to suspect your yeast might be somehow compromised, but that is very rare with today's product quality and shelf life. It might have been valid decades ago, but not today. You can add Active Dry right to your other dry ingredients and go forth. Water temperature only affects the amount of time it takes to ferment. Sure, you can kill your yeast with water too hot (is it 140 F?), but water cooler than 90 F will work just as well. You just adjust your expected bulk fermentation. Yes, I've been made aware Gleezer disagrees with me.

Thing 3 - Is his actual problem (expanded on below)

Thing 4 - Has no practical matter here. Changing water type is not going to miraculously save this dough, unless it's a coincidence combined with what actually is the problem (hydration, mixing, and technique).

Thing 5 - 100% has no matter here. It matters more with overnight preferments or specialty recipes where it might actually matter. It isn't causing this dough failure.

@polkd -

As Paul indicates in Thing 3, the hydration of your dough (the liquid content to flour ratio) is suspect. If you measure with cups, this is easy to get wrong by just enough to create a newbie disaster. One who is familiar with dough by touch can easily rectify this. It is much preferred to weigh ingredients with a kitchen scale. We don't have details from you to work with on that front, so we'll have to wait for your response there. Even if you nail the correct hydration, you can cause a disaster by adding too much bench flour to the kneading process - which will then obviously change the final hydration.

Cake flour? Cake flour isn't good for the support structures needed for raised breads. Even a little bit (for what, softness?) will weaken your overall dough just enough to contribute to a disaster. It would be better to use mashed or instant potato if softness was desired. You might need a new recipe to experiment with...

Assuming you get the hydration correct, then mixing comes into play. You have to mix to a minimum where all of the flour comes in contact with some of the liquid. Make sure of this (if you don't have a suitable kitchen mixer) by reaching in and squishing all the dry bits, or perform a frisage on your work surface. Then you will want to gather all of the dough into a bowl and let it just SIT - this is called autolyse. Usually about 20-30 mins for commercial yeasts, 60-90 mins if using a natural leavening (starter).

Assuming that all goes well, then it has to be kneaded correctly, which is a huge subject all on its own. If everything above was performed perfectly, you could still end up with wayward dough if it isn't sufficiently structured by kneading or folding. This process is what creates the intricate spider webbing (gluten strands) that capture the gas. Not enough structure means dough that won't feel right and will not increase in sufficient volume. Again, cake flour will degrade this step. It cannot be kneaded or otherwise processed in order to hold gas in a heavy dough. Its purpose is the opposite.

Lastly, assuming all the above looks good, is shaping. You need a minimum of shaping technique to get the outer skin of the dough to stretch and tighten around the dough core. You are essentially making a CO2 grenade, so obviously you need pressure from that external skin, and you need to make sure that any seams are well-sealed.

I'd have to be honest and say, that, due to your mentioning of cake flour in that recipe, you might be much better served by finding an easier and somewhat foolproof recipe to experiment and bring your skills up with. Some French breads and certainly quite a few sandwich loafs are usually fairly straight forward and forgiving. If you can post any more info (like the actual recipe) or some pictures, we might have better suited advice for you down the road... best of luck!

- Keith

PastryPaul's picture
PastryPaul

You don't seem to be reading the posts. This is not a case of a single disaster bake. Polkd states that every time he/she makes bread the issues are there. Logic states that either there is a single, glaring repeated error, or a "perfect storm" of little things.

Here's a synopsis for you: Polkd's dough is not smooth and did not double, although at least one batch came close. Polkd weighed the flour. Polkd used a stand mixer. Polkd used Active Dry, which she hydrated, as specified. Polkd measured temperature twice (so we can safely assume she did not kill the yeast, which dies at 137F.). There is no mention in any polkd post of a resting period that may indicate an autolyse requirement in the formula. Polkd kept the salt and yeast separated by mixing the salt into the flour.

Obviously, the primary suspect is under-hydration, but why? The use of cake flour is obviously to reduce overall strength, but, again, why? We'll never know until we see the formula complete with method and, if applicable, any modifications polkd made.

Thing 1: The term "rule of thumb" refers to a simplifed methodology that arrives more or less at the point desired. I do however agree that 25% is closer to the actual 21.2121212121...%, but, to my mind at least, 50% is easier and, as you yourself stated, doesn't pose a problem. Besides did I not write "While some recipes suggest they are interchangeable, they are not except in very little quantities,"   which sounds very similar to your "In a normal home recipe for one or two loaves, they are in fact 100% interchangeable." And yet, I'm 95% wrong.

Thing 2: Others disagree with you, but I'm 100% wrong. Interesting. Truth be told, I suspect that you may actually be right. However, why take the risk? It is defintely not wrong to hydrate active dry yeast. Whatever... I will continue to hydrate it those few times I use it. Others can do as they please.

Thing 3: Yes, this is the most probable culprit, but we will never really know the why of it until we see the formula. Is it an older formula that uses 150grams (about 5.25 oz) as the weight of a cup of flour, although that probably isn't enough of an issue by itself? Is it a hand-me-down formula with transcription/conversion errors? (I once was given such a formula. Since a cup is 8 ounces and a pound is 16, 4 cups were written as 2 pounds! OUCH, talk about underhydrated!) Is it simply a typo in the formula? Did polkd seriously over dust? Who can tell by what we have read?

Thing 4: No it will not miraculously fix the dough, and if there is a single major error, this isn't it, but it may be a part of a "perfect storm" scenario (which, given polkd's subsequent posts, I am less inclined to consider). I'm in the Florida gulf coast often (but no where near Jacksonville where polkd is from) and only use tap water for washing when I'm there.

Thing 5: I stated flat out that some people don't agree. It is defintely not wrong to keep salt separate from yeast, but it may be unnecessary. I prefer not to take the chance when it is so easily avoidable. Again, others can do as they please,

As far as we can see, from the information provided and without guesswork, Polkd did everything right, yet she has had "multiple, multiple failures." The problem, therefore, is most likely somewhere in the post-mixing stages, but could also be the formula itself. We can go no deeper without the formula used.

 

 

Just Loafin's picture
Just Loafin

>You don't seem to be reading the posts.

I tried VERY nicely to not get personal or degrade you in any way - just correct some of the things you brought to the table that were either erroneous or relegated to the 'goose chase' category. Why do you feel it necessary to say such a thing to me? It's a waste of time and typing.

I like to help people, I have no hero complex, I'm just simply giving back for all of the help I have received. As I was learning new things, and when I continue to learn new things, I really appreciate people who can cut to the chase and give me FACTS to work with, and focus on the actual area in question. You took a shotgun approach, which assumed that if it wasn't one thing, there might be a 'perfect storm' of little things. The problem was, if it is a storm of little things, they all reside in Thing 3 (and related techniques). The other things could not possibly, even if all happened simultaneously, cause the conditions polkd is describing.

Let us forget that it isn't doubling. The real problem is the dough texture as described. We can just completely ignore the lack of rise until THIS (texture) issue is fixed, because even if it did indeed rise, there would follow shaping issues and there'd be crust and crumb issues post-bake. Assuming every 'thing' you listed was not perfect:

  1. Failed to add .25% more ADY than IDY called for, so just used exact amount.
  2. Failed to proof ADY in ideal temperature water.
  3. (n/a)
  4. Used tap water that is harder than normal, whatever normal might mean.
  5. Added the salt right on top of the yeast.

None of these things, alone or combined, are going to create a dough that fits polkd's description. Why bother posting them? It overwhelms the person seeking advice for something specific, and sends them in directions that aren't going to solve the posted issue.

Thing 2: Others disagree with you, but I'm 100% wrong. Interesting.

You are wrong, by 100%. Anyone who says you must do this is wrong, it's nothing personal. I know they are wrong because I do this all the time. Not a few times, we're in to the hundreds of times by now. Others have posted that since they've tried it, it also works for them and has had no ill effects. In fact, to date, I have yet to see a post where someone tried this and failed. So, we can prove this is a step that is not required unless you suspect your yeast is bad, but forget about that.. more to the point, it certainly isn't a step that is required for the 'smooth and silky' dough texture the poster desires. I believe that by now, the burden is upon you, and anyone who keeps suggesting it is required, to prove why it's required. Why? Bake two exact recipes and SHOW us the horrors we face? Ridiculous. Why not just humor me and try it? Afraid to join the rebellion? You suspect I'm right, but refuse to prove it to yourself. That's fine, and yes, you can do as you please in your kitchen. The problem I have is you are telling other less experienced bakers that they must do it, too. Doing this step has been proven to be an option/opinion in today's kitchens. That's means, squarely, that suggesting someone's dough isn't turning out right because they skipped it is false. 100%.

In all of your 'things', there are a plethora of 'mays', 'mights', 'buts', and every other way of creating a Houdini clause. It's essentially saying everything and nothing at the same time, depending on how you are questioned or challenged. Touché.

Sorry man... your post was filled with too much false and/or erroneous information, and did not directly relate to the problem the poster wanted help with. I had to comment. At least I made the attempt to stick to facts and not get personal... it's the internet, so it was a small hope it wouldn't be returned as personal. That failed, it's ok, we move on.

- Keith

richkaimd's picture
richkaimd

I don't know how much of a novice baker you are, but you've started out on the right foot by bringing your problems to this site and asking your questions.  Hang in there, take your best shot, take notes, ask questions, and thereby get better.  Don't be in a hurry. 

Not knowing exactly what you mean about your dough's texture makes me suggest that above all else you seek out a local baker with lots more experience and ask for an opportunity to practice with that person.  There's absolutely nothing like up close and personal hands-on experience.  How can anyone explain a texture better than what one feel can?  Use this website to ask whether there's anyone nearby you.

My guess about your dough is this:  assuming that you've added exactly the right ingredients in the right amounts and that you're certain that your yeast is alive (I don't think when adding salt's the issue, but I may be wrong) because you've proofed it, then I think you haven't kneaded it enough.

I recommend trying again, measuring carefully, and then kneaded the resultant dough until you get a gluten window.  If you don't know what a gluten window, use the search function on the upper left of TFL's home page, type in "gluten window" and read. 

Always remember to use the search function before you ask your questions.  You'll be amazed how many questions you come up with that've been asked many times in the past.

Also, use Youtube for videos of techniques you're wondering about.

I also recommend using a basic textbook rather than a cookbook when you're first trying to learn.  I prefer DiMuzio's Breadbaking.  It's got everything in it you'll ever ask about and yet is reasonably short.  I was lucky in finding it at a discount at a bookstore that was going out of business.  You might also find it at Alibris or Powell's, both used book sites.

Keep making mistakes and learning from them.  This is fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

polkd's picture
polkd

Thank you ever so much for the words of wisdom/encouragement. 

I did my very best to follow the directions as written.  I have had many failed attempts at yeat breads. 

The recipe called for active dry yeast.  It stated to add the salt in with the flour.  I used both unbleached all purpose flour along with cake flour as instructed.  I used a scale to weight the ingredients.   I let the yeast 'bloom' in the warm water with the sugar as directed.  I took the temperature of the water before adding the sugar and yeast.  The recipe stated to mix for ten minutes in a stand mixer so I set the timer so I would not over kneading.   I had heard over kneading would kill the yeast.  (Not sure if this is true or not.)

Since I have had multiple, multiple failed attempts, I try to rule out the easy things that I can.

PastryPaul's picture
PastryPaul

Ok so the problem is not insufficient yeast, assuming the recipe is OK.

Yeast is a living organism that gives off gases as it lives and breeds over time. The gases get trapped under layers of gluten like hot air gets trapped under a balloon. The net effect is that the dough rises, naturally and with little effort.

If your dough does not rise either the "envelope" is too soft or too hard. Think of the hot air balloon.. If the balloon is made of mesh, the air passes right through and no lift. If the balloon is made of concrete, the balloon will be too heavy to lift.

Assuming the recipe itself is not at fault (which we have not yet determined to be the case): The only possible explanations are insufficient yeast (or dead, or counter-acted by hard water salt etc, or killed off by heat), under-hydrated (i.e. too stiff) dough, or insufficient time. They are pretty much the only variables.

Yeast:

  • How old is it?
  • Where do you store it? You bloomed it, so did it make foamy bubbles?
  • How hot was the water (you still have not posted the recipe)

A far as the other possibles go, without the formula/recipe there is nothing much to investigate.

 

polkd's picture
polkd

Thank you ever so much for the words of wisdom/encouragement. 

I did my very best to follow the directions as written.  I have had many failed attempts at yeat breads. 

The recipe called for active dry yeast.  It stated to add the salt in with the flour.  I used both unbleached all purpose flour along with cake flour as instructed.  I used a scale to weight the ingredients.   I let the yeast 'bloom' in the warm water with the sugar as directed.  I took the temperature of the water before adding the sugar and yeast.  The recipe stated to mix for ten minutes in a stand mixer so I set the timer so I would not over kneading.   I had heard over kneading would kill the yeast.  (Not sure if this is true or not.)

Since I have had multiple, multiple failed attempts, I try to rule out the easy things that I can.

Chuck's picture
Chuck

I think it's quite hard for anybody to describe what's going on in words well enough to get a good diagnosis. The old saw "a picture's worth a thousand words" seems relevant. Can you possibly post a picture of your un-smooth/un-silky dough?

Also, a few questions:

  • Does your recipe specify an "autolyse" step? ("Autolyse" is mixing the flour and the water but not the yeast, then doing something else for a half hour or so.)
  • What sort of "development" does your recipe specify: kneading, or stretch&fold, or French fold? How long does your recipe say you should spend on "development"? And how long have you actually spent kneading or folding or whatever?
  • What are you using to prevent the dough sticking to your hands and the work surface? wheat flour, or rice flour, or oil, or water? And how are you spreading it? shaker, or sprayer, or rubbing it between your fingers, or dropping it off the ends of your fingers? And where do you keep it? in the sack, or in a shallow bowl, or in a shaker? (A very common problem -particularly with newer bakers- is to measure the flour/water ratio exactly initially, but to wind up working in way more flour than you realize so the ratio winds up very far off.)
  • When you're mixing and measure temperatures, what's the temperature of each of:
  1. the flour that will go into the dough
  2. the water that will go into the dough
  3. the air around you and the dough
  4. the dough after it's been mixed
Superdooperal's picture
Superdooperal

 

I think 10 minutes kneading in a stand mixer is far too long.  I would do 4 at most.   If kneading by hand I would expect to do it for 10 minutes.  If the yeast doesn;t look like its frothy enought after 15 minutes I throw it away and try again, if the dough doesn't look like it has doubled in size after an hour, I leave it a bit longer and maybe put it somewhere a bit warmer.  I don't measure any temperatures. I use my eyes, my hands and my judgement.  Here in the UK for breadmaking we use "strong" flour - ie one which has more gluten in it - I don't know about US flour but does what you are using have enough gluten to hold the texture?

polkd's picture
polkd

Thank you all.  You have provided me with a wealth of information.  I knew baking was a science, I just did not realize to what extent. 

I found the recipe in a magazine 'Cuisine At Home':  Pizza Dough

1 cup warm water (105-115 degrees)

1 Tbsp. sugar

1 pkg. (1/4 oz.) active dry yeast (experiation date 2013, I bought it at a local major grocery store)

2 1/4 cups all-purpose flour  (6 1/4 oz.)

1 cup cake flour (4 oz.)

1 Tbsp. kosher salt

2 Tbsp. olive oil

Combine water, sugar, yeast.  Proof until foamy, about 5 minutes.

Mix flours and salt  in bold of mixer with dough hook.  Add oil to proofed mixture then pour into flour.  Knead dough on low speed 10 minutes.  Place in oiled bowl, cover.  Let rise until doubled about two hours.  Punch down, divide into four balls, cover and rise another hour. 

Just Loafin's picture
Just Loafin

This recipe is 1/3 cake four. I can't really recommend that to an inexperienced baker. There's too much room to fail, on top of the fact that pizza dough, in general, is a medium to advanced dough to work with. If you try it again, I would suggest you use traditional kneading methods before handing it over to a machine. A machine can degrade dough too quickly. It's the difference between using your oven and using the broiler. 30 seconds is all that's between you and disaster. I would also suggest that you work with some easier yeasted products, as again, pizza dough can be fairly challenging.

I surmise that your ingredients are probably in the correct proportions, or at least close enough that this disaster shouldn't occur. That leaves us with a troublesome ingredient (cake flour), and the possibility that your machine is either over or under working the dough. I think your issue is pretty specific there, and therefore should be fairly simple to solve. There are hundreds of pizza dough recipes that are almost EXACT to yours, but do not call for cake flour, and then you can hand knead (easiest part of pizza dough) to eliminate any machine problems.

- Keith

PastryPaul's picture
PastryPaul

2 1/4 cups all-purpose flour (6 1/4 oz.) is probably off. My AP flour weighs (calculated using its specific gravity) 128 grams per cup which would make 2 1/4 cups closer to 10 1/2 ounces.

Although there is a difference between brands it shouldn't be all that much. Mind you if you weighed the flour to 6 1/4 ounces your dough would be pretty wet, definitely not rough and dry (hydration 80% +).

If you scooped the flour, you may have scooped up to 14 ounces (hydration below 50%)which would explain rough and dry.

Try this easier pizza dough if you like. This dough is very simple, forgiving, and very quick. Don't obsess about perfection.

Yields about 850 g (1 3/4 pounds) enough for 4 - 8" pizzas or 2 - 14" pizzas

  • 1 package (2-1/2 tsp, or 8g.) active-dry yeast
  • 360 ml, (1 1/2 cups) warm water (100-110°F)
  • 520g (4 cups, 1lb 5 ounces) all-purpose flour; a little more for dusting
  • 1-1/2 tsp. salt
  • 2 Tbs. olive oil
  1. Add the yeast to the water.
  2. In your mixer, with dough hook, combine flour and salt give it a turn or two to mix.
  3. With the mixer running at low, add the water/yeast in a steady stream.
  4. Add the oil
  5. Mix on low speed about a minute or two to blend
  6. Mix on 2nd speed for about 3-5 minutes or until the dough climbs the hook.
  7. Turn the dough out onto a lightly floured surface. Cut into four roughly equal parts.
  8. Roll each piece under your cupped hands to form a tight smooth ball (may take some practice, the dough will tend to stick to your hands and/or bench. The balls should be pretty smooth, if they look sort of "hairy" they are sticking to either your bench, your hands or both.)
  9. Cover and let rise 45 minutes to an hour or until almost doubled.

If you plan to use them the following day, place the formed balls, before the rise, in the fridge. They'll rise in there. Just bring them back to room temp before use.

If you want to freeze them for up to a month, do so after they are formed. They'll thaw and rise in a couple of hours later (within a month)

Cheers

Chuck's picture
Chuck

I hope I didn't leave the wrong impression. My detailed questions were one-time-only attempts to figure out why this wasn't working. Although baking does indeed tend to be slightly more finicky than most other types of cooking, it by no means requires the precision/care of a labratory scientist.

Anyway, I'm glad that PastryPaul seems to have finally gotten to the bottom of this:  there must by a typo/mis-copy in that recipe  ...it's time to revisit the original magazine (or change recipes:-).

JoeV's picture
JoeV

Pastry Paul's suggested recipe is a good one, and is one I use frequently. I make mine in my KitchenAid Pro 600, and mix for 6 minutes on speed 2...perfect dough every time and easy enough for a novice to build confidence with.

I agree that the flour weight is off in the OP's formula, but more importantly, cake flour has little to no use in bread formulas IMO, especially in pizza dough. As suggested earlier, there are other ways to soften crumb without compromising the gluten structure with low protien flour, but I like a sturdy dough to support all the goodies I like to put on my pizza.

I love when different approaches to a challenge are discussed in depth, without killing each other. LOL I look past the emotion and enjoy the meat and potatoes of the discussion.

Don't give up. If you want bread formulas at whatever skill level you are at, stop here and we'll be happy to help you out. Pictures are always a good thing, as they can often help in the analysis of a problem. Have a piece of pizza on me.

 

polkd's picture
polkd

Thank you and everyone else for their assistance.  This is a wonderful stie!

polkd's picture
polkd

Someone suggested I ask if there is anyone in Jacksonville, Florida that is available to assist me with my bread baking.  I have tried to locate classes for the home baker; however it seems that the classes I have come across are for culinary arts degree programs.

Chuck's picture
Chuck

My local community college (I'm in Massachusetts) has two completely separate catalogs, one for "degree" students and the other for "extension" students. Each of the two gives the impression it's the only catalog and no other courses are offered; looking at the wrong catalog makes the problem appear to be a whole lot worse than it really is.

Even so, I once had an issue where the courses I really wanted were only offered as part of a degree program. So I went ahead and signed up for the degree, took the courses I wanted (and paid for them of course), then just disappeared.

It made hash out of their computer system, who couldn't figure out why I didn't "graduate" a few years later, and eventually flagged me to not allow any more course registrations at all until the mess was straightened out. I sent just one email to the registrar, they did something magical to their computer system, and now everything is hunky-dory again.

Another example of the philosophy of the company I used to work for: "to ask permission is to seek denial".

JoeV's picture
JoeV

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but want to make some suggestions for bread baking classes.

I make up to 30 loaves of Italian bread 3 times each year for a bake sale fundraiser at our church. So many people asked for me to make bread for them, that I got permission to do my own fundraiser for our food pantry...a bread baking teaching seminar fundraiser, so folks could learn to do it themself. Cost was $25 per person, with checks made out to the food pantry. I have done this 3 times and raised over $2,400 (I donate all time & materials) and developed quite a few new bread bakers at our church. This is one way to get a bread baking class where none exists without jumping through hoops like a degree program. Here was my first bread class that I ever taught (baptism in fire, but I survived)...

An alternate suggestion to my classes would be to contact your local Senior Center, and see if they would be interested doing a class. they could probably get a volunteer from their membership who would love to share their experience. Our Senior Center is always looking for new and different programs for the members and community to participate in.

Another avenue might be your local high school. Very similar setup to the Senior Center idea, using the "Life Skills" classroom as a continuing education venue, and maybe the teacher as a teaching source. They teach boys and girls cooking and baking, and my son enjoyed the daylights out of the class.

You just need to think outside the box to get a bread class where none exists. the bread bakers are out there, they just need to be sourced and get a venue. I even donated "A Bread Baking Class" as a silent auction item for a fundraiser we attended. The high bidder got to bring 3 friends to my home and spent 5 hours with me learning how to make basic breads.

My classes have a lot of "samples," and I never take home any bread. It all gets eaten at the class. LOL