The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

DId not rise

  • Pin It
Chris downunder's picture
Chris downunder

DId not rise

Is there are simple explanation for the reason why a bread will not rise very much (final prove). The bread doubled during first prove, once I put it in the tins, it rose only slightly and there was no oven spring. The bread was quite heavy and dense. Tastes OK, but not as light and fluffy as I have made in the past (using all white plain flour eg lesson 1 loaf on this site)

I did experiment this time using 350g white flour, 150g wholemeal flour, 50g linseed, 50g sunflower seeds, 50g rolled oats, salt, 7g instant yeast, 330ml water. I'd like to know what went wrong so I learn from my mistakes.

I'd be grateful for any advice. Thanks Chris

Mebake's picture
Mebake

From you description i would interpret that you did not knead your dough sufficiently, thereby your formed loaf had a weak structure that could not handle the sudden oven spring and collapsed, caused a dense loaf.

Furthermore, Wholewheat contains bran, Oats, seeds, all contribute to toughness, as they absorb lots of liquid, and need more kneading to soften them up. Try to aim for a window pane (stretching a piece of dough to form a thin transparent film).

Chris downunder's picture
Chris downunder

Thanks for the suggestions, will try this and the others. Regards Chris

jcking's picture
jcking

Chris,

In addition to Mebakes' good advice. If you're loading up with extras you might consider using bread flour to help lift the loaf.

Jim

Chris downunder's picture
Chris downunder

Hi Jim, I am using a "bakers flour" with 11.9-12% protien (the white flour I mean, not sure of the wholemeal protein content). Is that what you mean by bread flour? thanks Chris

flournwater's picture
flournwater

You may also have overproofed it during the initial rise period.

Chris downunder's picture
Chris downunder

I do suspect this could be the case. When it says double is size, I assume this is referring to overall volume, rather than height, I think this with all of the other variables I put in conspired to produce the outcome I got. At least i am learning.

Thanks Chris.

lumos's picture
lumos

Did you soak rolled oats before mixing in?  If you didn't, it might've absorbed moisture during fermentation which prevented the dough from expanding suffinciently.  That's on the top of using WW flour instead of white flour, as Khalid suggested.

Chris downunder's picture
Chris downunder

No, but I will try this, as well as soaking the seeds too. Thansk Chris

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Whole meal flour needs a water and time so that the bran has an opportunity tosoak up the water and soften. Oats and linseed also need this. A multigrain loaf also needs to have the gluten well developed so that it can expand and support the other heavy ingredients.

Here's a fishing analogy:

Think of the gluten as a net and the seeds and grains as seashells and the airbubbles as fish. In order for the fish (air bubbles) to fit in the net and expand, you have to have plenty of net so it can expand and the net (gluten) has to be strong and abundant enough that the sharp seashells (bran and seeds) don't cut the net.

So really hydrate the flours,grains and seeds and work to develop the gluten. You may need to increase the liquid in your recipe. Add all the whole meal,linseed and oatmeal to most of the water. Let it sit for 30-60 minutes. Add the rest of the ingredients and make sure you develop the gluten.

By the way, the yeast seems to be a low amount, unless you are counting on a longer rise time for flavor development.Is that about a half a packet or am I not remembering correctly?

Another thought is to mix it up and put it in a covered container in the refrigerator overnight. Remove the next day,shape,rise (a little longer due to the chill) and bake.TThe overnight retard is great for flavor and to hydrate all thise lovely grains. But still increase the water.

Chris downunder's picture
Chris downunder

Clazar123, Thanks for the response, the fishing story really makes sense when you put it in that way. Resting the wholemal flour and other ingredients in water sounds like the plan, then I assume I would add the yeast, white flour, salt, and some more water. The 7g sachet of yeast equates to 2 teaspoons, so if this means I need more, then I can try this. (what do you think?) If I add more water, and the dough becomes sticky and tacky as I initially start to knead it, what should I do? add more flour to stop it sticking to my hands and the bench (I read someone talking about oil in the bench!).

Your last paragraph talks about leaving overnight in the fridge, at what stage during the proving process should I do this? Before or after the first prove? And also on the subject of proving, what does a second prove do? (I mean prior to the final shaped / in tin prove, which I would then call the third prove). Becuase some recipes say prove, then knock down, shape in tin, let prove then cook, and other recipes say prove, knock, prove, knock, shape in tin, prove cook.

Thanks everyone so much for the responses. Regards Chris

Woods's picture
Woods

If you used the same yeast weight as with the white it would'nt be up to lifting the heavier ingredients you added.  With oats, ww etc.  It could not be a light and fluffy bread as with all white.

Chris downunder's picture
Chris downunder

Thanks, I will try more yeast.

regards Chris

clazar123's picture
clazar123

There are several ways to handle this.

1. Initially, using a stand mixer is one idea-works great to mix the wet dough and then add the rest of the flour. If it is still sticky then use a flexible plastic bench scraper to do some stretch and folds in the bowl. This is an easy technique and you can find out more by entering "stretch and fold" in the search box.You will get TONS of hits. You can also check out the videos. It is always better to see it than to try and explain. But remember that whole meal dough will feel a little stickier than regular (white flour) dough at first. It needs to rest (either in the bowl for 30 min or overnight in the refrigerator.) By the end of the rest, it will feel much less sticky because the bran bits and grains have absorbed the water and softened up a bit. Refrain from adding too much additional flour.You want a slightly sticky (more than tacky) dough.  Then rise til double,shape into a loaf, final proof rise in pan ( or as freestanding loaf) and bake.So altogether: 1 rest for 30 min(autolyse)-1 rise til double(fermentation)  and 1 rise in pan (proof)  OR

2. Mix the dough to a shaggy mess and let rest for 30 min. Then use either a damp (not wet!) hand and counter (keep a saucer of water nearby to dip your fingers in periodically)and knead or stretch and fold.Or you can use oil sparingly on both hand and counter. I am more successful using water. If the dough gets slippery when you are kneading you are using way too much water. Then rise til double,shape into a loaf, final proof rise in pan ( or as freestanding loaf) and bake. So altogether: 1 rest for 30 min(autolyse)-1 rise til double(fermentation)  and 1 rise in pan (proof)   OR

3. Mix the dough to a shaggy mess,rest for 30 min, knead or stretch and fold and then put it into an oiled covered container in the refrigerator right after kneading-it will rise overnight in the refrig. The next AM, you will find it has almost doubled in the refrig overnight. Let it rest on the counter to warm up (about 1 hour). Shape into your loaf (pan,batard,whatever). Final proof and then bake. So there is a 30 minute rest (autolyse), 1 long rise in the refrigerator(fermentation) and 1 rise in the pan (final proof).

So you see, there are many ways to get a great loaf. Try one way and see how you like it.

Some principles to remember: Wholemeal needs to soak up water over time and there are many ways to accomplish that. COld retarded fermentation (overnight in the refrig) allows this to happen and also for the yeasts to digest and make more flavor compounds for your loaf.I make my most delicious 100% wholemeal loaves this way. Developing the gluten allows you to capture more bubbles and the loaf to rise higher. Shaping is also important to that process. A lower oven temp (375F here) is more conducive to cooking the wholemeal loaf through and through as it is a wetter dough.

I hope I answered all the questions. Part of learning is just to bake the same loaf over and over. Track what you did in a notebook (believe me you will never remember) and before the next bake, change 1 thing to see what happens.

Have delicious fun!

Chris downunder's picture
Chris downunder

Hi Clazar123,

I had success with the following, thanks for the advice.

I simplified the ingredients somewhat, 400g white flour, 100g wholemeal, 25g each of linseed and sunflower seeds, salt, 7g yeast, 375ml water. I saoked for 45 mins the water with w/meal flour, and seeds (no oats this time), then added white flour, salt and yeast, and kneaded, it was sticky, but I used a disposable latex glove, and this worked well, it was just not sticking to the bench, but was still tacky, but workable, good gluten development, kneaded 10 mins, then put in oiled bowl in fridge (4C, about 39F) at 10pm, by 7am the rise was amazing, more than double I would say, I turned it out and let it get to room temp (winter here, so maybe 10-12C), knock down, shaped into bread tin, then I let it prove for 2.5 hours, this did take time, and I was worried that the yeast might be spent, but she came up and looked great, 45 mins at 375F. I have a photo, not sure how to attach, but I will try. Tasted great, toasted well too. Thanks a lot, I am happy now that I can do more than the basic white loaf. Cant' seem to post the photo, never mind

Regards Chris

Chris downunder's picture
Chris downunder