The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Jewish Sour Rye

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Jewish Sour Rye

 

It has been a while since I last made Jewish Sour Rye, but it is still a favorite of mine. Learning to make this bread, which I could no longer get locally, was a major reason I started baking bread again 4 or 5 years ago. I use a formula based on that in George Greenstein's “Secrets of a Jewish Baker.” In 2008, I worked out the ingredient weights. Greenstein gives only volume measurements. The formula for my version can be found here: Sour Rye Bread from George Greenstein's “Secrets of a Jewish Baker”

Traditional Jewish Sour Rye is made with white rye flour and first clear flour. Once I started making more German and Russian style rye breads, the flavor of white rye became less appealing to me. I started making a version of Jewish Sour Rye using dark rye instead.

Today's bake was made with a rye sour built from my stock sourdough, which is kept at 50% hydration and is fed with a 70:20:10 mix of AP:WW: Dark rye. I went through 3 builds at 12 hour intervals, doubling the volume of sour with each build. The first two were fed with BRM Dark Rye. The final build, which contained approximately half the total rye flour, was fed with a nice, finely milled medium rye flour from nybakers.com. I kept the half-ripe, final sour build refrigerated overnight and let it warm up for an hour before mixing the dough. The first clear flour I used was also from nybakers.com. I also added a half cup of altus – German-style pumpernickel (baked 5 months ago and frozen) cut in cubes and soaked overnight in cold water, then wrung out before adding to the dough. 

I needed to add an additional 1/2 cup or so of first clear flour during mixing to get the dough consistency I wanted. I suspect this was necessary because of the additional water in the altus. This dough is very slack and very sticky as it comes out of the mixer, but it shapes well with judicious flour dusting and a light touch when handling it. I divided the dough into three 528g pieces and shaped as logs. For the first time, I proofed this rye on a linen couche. This stuff is magic. Even these sticky loaves released with no dough sticking to the linen. I transferred the loaves to a sheet of parchment on my peel, because I didn't want the cornstarch glaze getting on it. The bake was as described in my previous blog entries.

I sliced and tasted the bread about 3 hours after it came out of the oven. I feared I had somewhat over-proofed the loaves. They had less oven spring than usual. However, I was very happy with the crumb structure and the texture of the crumb. It has a delicious rye with caraway flavor. It was moderately sour. The pumpernickel altus added a depth of flavor, as well as a different texture due to the cracked rye berries in in the pumpernickel dough.

This bread is still a favorite.

David

Submitted to YeastSpotting

Comments

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Beautiful Jewish Rye, David! Quite interesting how a change from White to Dark Rye leads to a dramatic change in crumb outcome. This Rye is for hardcore Rye lovers for Sure!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I don't think the type of rye is responsible for any difference in the crumb. This dough was a bit wetter than usual, and I think that was the major factor. 

David

arlo's picture
arlo

Nicely done David. Do I see a corn beef and pastrami sandwich on the way...?

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

No corn beef or pastrami, but the rye was fab toasted and eaten with pickled herring for breakfast.

David

AnnaInMD's picture
AnnaInMD

of me, I cannot remember our German rye breads having any signs of oven-spring. They were docked, however.

Your loaves are beautiful, perfect crumb !

Anna

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I sometimes get more oven spring. Sometimes very little. I've never docked a 50% rye like this. 

David

Zaramart kippot's picture
Zaramart kippot

I think this is the bread that we call "lehem ahid" in Israel.The one which is subsidised .
 We add dried tomatoes or sunflower seeds and it is delicious.Beteavon :)

http://www.a-zara.com/

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I have made rye with sunflower seeds and mixed seeds. Dried tomatoes sounds interesting. Do you know what percentage you would add to the dough?

David

Zaramart kippot's picture
Zaramart kippot

I wouldn't know.I am an expert eating it :)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Ahhhh ... Where would the bakers be without those with your expertise?

David

louie brown's picture
louie brown

Nice looking crumb, David. I love this bread but haven't made it in a long time. Apropos, I wonder what's the status of the Jewish baking books that are in the works.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I believe Stan said the release date for the book is in October. I'm eager to see it.

David

Elagins's picture
Elagins

but we expect it to be in the stores sooner ... hopefully by mid-September

Stan

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

I'm with Arlo.  I hear each of those little holes in the crumb crying out for pastrami.

Glenn

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Fresno is pathetically pastramiless. Maybe we can work something out. 

David

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

We don't have great Pastrami in SF either.  I plan to make my own by taking a commercial corned beef brisket, seasoning it with a pepper and spice rub, and smoking it in my Weber.

Eric Hanner has promised to provide a recipe, but if I get impatient, I will use one of the several recipes I've found on the interwebs.

Glenn

louie brown's picture
louie brown

Katz's ships. It can be very successfully reheated with steam.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks, Louie.

Glenn ordered corn beef and pastrami - I think from Katz's - a few years ago. As I recall, the pastrami was very good. We had it on corn rye I'd baked. Kenny and Zuke's in Portland will also ship their pastrami (2 lb minimum order). I might have to resort to that. I'm hoping Eric stops teasing us and delivers on his  recipe pretty soon. ;-)

David

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Though I haven't eaten at all the famous NYC delis, and Carnegie is the only one I've been to more than a dozen times, it is mine 'umble opinion that Carnegie Deli has the best corned beef and 2nd Avenue Deli has the best Pastrami.  Both ship.  

Being a locovore (when possible), I mean to smoke my own, using California beef and California smoke.  I suspect I'd have a tough time sourcing exclusively locally-grown herbs and spices.

Glenn

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks for the setting the deli source straight.

As for "locally grown herbs," the principal herb crop in our great State is, of course, cannabis. 

Recipe: <deleted>

David

Elagins's picture
Elagins

it's a block south of Carnegie on Sixth Ave and like 53rd St ... the corned beef and pastrami and TONGUE sandwiches are to die for.  how come no one's talked about pickled tongue? i'd almost rather have that than either pastrami or corned beef ...

Stan

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Stan,

Pickled tongue is good, but it's not Pastrami.

I've been to Stage Deli a couple times.  I prefer Carnegie.  If it's good enough for Henny Youngman, it's good enough for me.  Plus the warm, caring wait staff can't be beat.

Glenn

EvaB's picture
EvaB

but don't remember it being pickled. What I do remember is the boiled pork liver ( I know Jewish restrictions on Pork but its better than beef in my opinon) but have no idea what or exactly how she did it.

I do remember the first time I had it in a sandwich (homemade bread of course) she was asking my mother if it was spiced right (I think she had a cold and couldn't taste well) and gave my mother a sandwich of it, and when I in my 4 year old rightious indignation asked why I didn't get a sandwich as well, was told little girls didn't like liver, to which I replied how did I know if I liked it or not since I had never tasted it? The upshot was she made me a sandwich with my mother saying she would eat it if I didn't, and while it was a bit of a taste difference to my palate I was just stubborn enough to eat the whole thing! After that liver was just fine. Too bad my DH and kids don't like it, I miss liver! Wish I could get a good recipe for boiled liver (whole) I'd make it anyway!

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hello David,
Noting your lovely! rye bread, and hoping someday to bake something like it to enjoy with pastrami, something I've never before tasted. Sounds like pastrami and rye is something not to be missed!
Eric had mentioned Kenny and Zuke's in Portland in one of his comments awhile back...and we did try to make it there on our recent trip to Oregon but didn't make it to the deli.
How nice to know there is 'pastrami by post'. Might be the way to go, being that we are pastrami-less, and smoker-less.
Notwithstanding, I'm looking forward to reading about Eric's method for making pastrami!
:^) from breadsong

 

louie brown's picture
louie brown

Breadsong, pastrami is one of the really great treats. It is cured, not smoked. Katz's in New York is as good as it gets. There is another place in Brooklyn, but that's about it. The traditions that underlie these delicacies are disappearing. 

Make a Jewish rye. Order a pastrami from Katz's, invite your best friends over for a feast. Accept no substitutes. Trust me. There will be dissenters, but, trust me. Reheat it over steam. 

I know a three star Italian chef who has as his grail eating Katz's pastrami.

edited to add: I would be more than glad to try Eric's method at home if he would provide it. That would be fun.

Elagins's picture
Elagins

pastrami is first cured and then hot-smoked with a cracked pepper dry rub. unlike corned beef, which most people like lean, the secret to real heart-stopping Jewish pastrami is lots of fat, so that the sandwich leaves a trail of grease on whatever it touches.  there's nothing more life-affirming (if you do it once or twice a year) than an obscenely thick hot pastrami sandwich on high-percentage Jewish deli rye, slathered with brown mustard, accompanied by half-sour pickles and sour tomatoes and a glass of Dr. Brown's celery tonic.

Ahhhhhh, heaven!

Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com

And David, those ryes are exquisite, but at this point, I expect nothing less from you. S

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks for the kind words, but I must take exception to one teeny item in your life-affirmation formula: Celery tonic is way down the list of perfect beverages to accompany a pastrami on rye - that list being headed by Vernor's Ginger Ale! 

Okay, Dr. Brown's cream soda is second after Vernor's. 

The rest of your formula is more than acceptable, although I'd add my mother's potato salad to the list of essential sides.

David

Elagins's picture
Elagins

Our ginger ale of choice (or necessity) was Canada Dry ... pale stuff in comparison with Vernor's. Cream soda's okay, but I stand by Dr. Browns celery soda. My second choice would be plain seltzer, but only out of a yortzeit (memorial) candle glass.

Stan

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

...to mess with tradition if it can be improved.

I like Stan's formula for a gut-busting meal.  And I like David's variations (Mom's potato salad--and its progeny--and Mom's garlic dills are the perfect accompaniments to a corned meat sandwich).   My own preference is for sweet-spicy mustard, like Mendocino Mustard, on the sandwich, and a nice cold Pilsner in the bottle along side.

OK, I think I just talked myself into making Pastrami and Rye next weekend.

Glenn

louie brown's picture
louie brown

Of course, cured then hot smoked. It's the cure that's missing sometimes in things called pastrami that aren't. I'd intended to call attention to that.

I like my corned beef with some fat as well. 

There's a place in Brooklyn called David's Brisket House, once owned by Jews and now owned by Arabs, who continue to turn out an exceptional product. Between that and Katz's, that's my two times a year. I wouldn't bother with either the Stage or the Carnegie.

 

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Thanks, louie and Stan, for additional explanation and letting me know where to find good pastrami.
If I can bake a rye as good! as David's, I'll be halfway there (to tasting this wonderful-sounding-sandwich)!
:^) from breadsong

ananda's picture
ananda

Lovely looking breads David, the crumb looks fantastic, and I believe the Dark Rye makes it all the more attractive.

Rye! Rye! Rye!

Best wishes

Andy 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

As I said, to me, this bread is much tastier using the dark and medium rye. It's really delicious.

David

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Sensational crumb.

As you know, I recently tried this recipe (well, approximately). Included no altus and simulated first clear flour by adding a bit of wheat germ and wholewheat flour to my usual baker's flour, plus the rye component was 50/50 rye meal and light rye. Your pics have inspired me to go another round soon! Suddenly craving that rye flavour...

Cheers!
Ross

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I'm reflecting on my good fortune in being able to access all those specialty flours. I've never been able to duplicate the flavor or behavior of either first clear or high-extraction flours by mixing other ingredients. But, if your ingredients are good, the product is good, even if "different" from the original.

I know you will ryes to the challenge. :-)

David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Your rye breads always do!  

Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

Francine's picture
Francine

David,

If you ever get up toBakersfield; goto Luigi's Deli, located at, 725 East 19th Street Bakersfield. https://shopluigis.com/aboutUs.php

My dad was friends with Luigi the son of the original founder. Luigi's had the best peppered pastrami sandwich I ever ate.  Not too far from Luigi's is the Phrenees French Bakery located on 21st street in Bakersfield; Luigis sandwiches were made on bread from the Phrenees French Bakery. http://www.pyreneesbakery.com/products.php 

We used to always pick up extra rolls from the bakery and meats from the Deli everytime we were in Bakersfield; it would be well worth the trip just to visit these two establishments. Unfortunately, I have not been there in over 20 years, but how I would love to have one of those sandwiches right now.  However, I know the kidlet's must be doing something right if the establishment is still there after all these years...  If you ever get a chance give both establishments a try.

Great looking bread!

Cheers,

Francine

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I'm sure Italian peppered beef on a Basque roll is very tasty, but it's not the same as New York pastrami on Sour Rye, I'm afraid.

David

Francine's picture
Francine

David,

No it's not the same, but very,very good!  We have Brent's & Juniors in our area for local flavors.  The pastrami at Luigis is a home cured recipe.  The fresh rolls are to die for.  No it can't be compared to a Jewish Deli; just very good.

Cheers,

Francine

Syd's picture
Syd

Lovely ryes, David.  I like the shaping, too.  It is just the right circumference to make the perfect bite-size sandwich.  You have been very busy this weekend!

Syd

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I had a lazy day today, just baking the miche and SF sourdoughs I had retarded overnight. Yesterday was busy, indeed.

David

Franko's picture
Franko

David,

I'm not normally a fan of caraway in my bread, or anything else for that matter, but if we can get Eric to part with his pastrami recipe allowing me to make my own, I'd wouldn't consider putting it on anything but this delicious looking rye bread you've shared with us...caraway or not!

Franko

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

This kind of rye is just a different kind of rye without caraway seeds. But maybe you have to be raised on it. Tutorial follows:

Introduction to Jewish Sour Rye, starring Sacha. (1 year old)

Step 1: Visual and tactile examination

Step 2: Reflective olfactory and gustatory assessment

Step 3: Announcing the verdict (Say, this is pretty good stuff, grandpa!)

Anyway, if Eric takes too long, we may just have to meet at Kenny and Zukes and sample what he's been raving about for ourselves. I figure it's close enough to half-way between us. 

David

Franko's picture
Franko

Sounds like a plan David! I'd be a up for a road trip South sometime before the cold stuff gets here.

The tutorial of Sacha showing how to eat bread is a pure delight!  Thanks for including those photos, I'm grinning from ear to ear.

Franko

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Your photos of Sacha enjoying her bread are the cutest thing I've seen today!
arlo's mini-loaf being second :^)
from breadsong

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

I think the caption for the third photo is "Where's the Pastrami, grandpa?"

Glenn (fond great-uncle)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

CarlSF's picture
CarlSF

David,

Those are nice rye loaves you have there!  I was wondering where do you get your clear flour from?  I have never found clear flour in the bulk food section.

Carl

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I've bought first clear flour from two sources - King Arthur Flour and nybakers.com.  I've never seen it packaged or in bulk in groceries.

David