The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

New York style Jewish Rye - anyone got an authentic recipe pls?

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

New York style Jewish Rye - anyone got an authentic recipe pls?

Hi folks. Just wondering if any New Yorkers - or others - might be willing to share a great recipe for an authentic NY Rye they can swear by from personal baking experience? Googling brings up plenty of promising-looking recipes (eg: this one) and I probably have a recipe or three in my bread books, but would prefer to begin with a tried-and-true recipe from another TFL tribe member.

I usually use a whole-grain organic rye in my SD breads, but fellow Perth-based TFLer Yozzause has recently kindly provided me with some light organic rye - thought this was a perfect opportunity to sample something close to the classic NY deli sandwich, pastrami on rye. Would prefer to fly to NY for the real deal, of course, but that ain't gonna happen right now, so...anyone?

Best of baking all!
Ross

ehanner's picture
ehanner

This is the NY deli style rye I have been making for years. The original post is on the front page as "Eric's Favorite Rye". After I had made this a few times, Norm gave me a few pointers as to what should be done to make it authentic. If you search under Norm and Rye there are lots of threads on the subject.

Rather than go all the way to NY, I suggest a much shorter trip and try Kenny and Zuke's Deli in Portland Oregon. These guys make artisan style rye daily and the best Pastrami in the entire World. If I lived within 100 miles of Portland, I'd eat there every day I swear.  Kenny taught me how to do the smoked pastrami and it's the best thing I do.

Eric

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Look forward to giving it a try. I know I am not going to recreate a really authentic NY rye living downunder and using local flours, but as long as I've got a good authentic recipe to go by, the rest is up to me and the bread gods. I'm a firm believer in terroir (if you can appropriate the term to bread), which sort of sits uncomfortably with my 'authentic' criteria, but paradox is everywhere!

I'm suddenly very curious about your smoked pastrami. If I am understanding your comment, you do it yourself? Would be obliged if you'd elaborate...

Cheers!
Ross

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Ross,

Learning how to smoked pastrami is enough of a reason in itself to buy a smoker. Obviously there are other "great with bread" meats that can be smoked but pastrami is reason enough.

I usually start with what they call a "full packer cut of beef brisket". Usually that is about 9-11 Lbs.  It is best to separate the point from the flat. Trim the fat cap down to 1/8 to 1/4 inch. If you have a butcher who can separate the two parts correctly that will be a help if you are new in this area. You can also start off by purchasing the already cured corned beef brisket flats or points. I prefer curing the meat myself in my own brine solution but you need to get pink curing salt first if you want to  cure raw meat for a week. I suggest starting with cured corn beef the first time anyway.  I'll send you my notes in a side message. I got this from the guys at Kenny and Zukes in Portland OR before they were famous to the degree they are now. Out of respect I don't want to post the method in the clear but I don't mind sending you my adaptation privately.

Eric

 

gmabaking's picture
gmabaking

Funny to read your comment today "reason in itself to buy a smoker" because after reading your post yesterday that is just exactly what I did. Even pre-followed your advice to start out with a corned brisket. Would like to try brining next time but too impatient to have good pastrami. Living in the rural northwest is great but no pastrami except in grocery store deli, pretty tasteless. The recipes that I found online said to toss the spice packet but didn't add any other spices, is that advised? Now for putting together the smoker. Still without an oven while we wait the third week for a mysterious part. New project sounds good.

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

I have PMd you. This sounds fabulous. Excited.

Cheers
Ross

NCWatt's picture
NCWatt

Eric,

 

If possible, I would also like to take a look at your adapted recipe.  I am new to the meat curing process and know that having  an adapted recipe from KZ would be a great starting point.

 

Thanks,


Tyler

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Brother David posted Greenstein's rye bread here (http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/9316/sour-rye-bread-george-greenstein039s-“secrets-jewish-baker””).  It is very much like the deli rye bread from the bakery of my childhood.

Glenn

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Where was the bakery of your childhood, by the way? Guess I'm after a streamlined education here. That is, is the NY deli rye truly unique - as with the famous or infamous (depending on your taste) SF 'sour' SD - or is it easily duplicatable and readily available elsewhere in the States?

Cheers
Ross

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Ross.

The Greenstein sour rye is authentic and delicious. NY-style Jewish rye is always made with white rye flour and First Clear flour. However, like you, I prefer the flavor of whole rye, and I've made Greenstein's rye with dark (whole grain) rye with good results. First Clear flour will probably be hard, if not impossible, for you to find locally. You can substitute a strong white flour, but it won't taste as good.

You can order First Clear from King Arthur Flour or from www.nybakers.com.

Happy baking!

David

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

I'm a committed locavore as far as practically possible, so will have to make do with local flours - am happy to do so, actually, as I am fortunate to be able to purchase fantastic quality biodynamic organic flours sourced from a farm in the nearby wheatbelt shire of Dumbleyung (sounds like something out of Harry Potter, doesn't it?). However, I just read another post of yours in which you explain exactly what first clear flour is. I'm thinking I might simulate this by adding a little wheatgerm and wholemeal flour to my usual premium baker's flour...what do you think?

Anyway, great to have your link to the Greenstein sour rye and your comments on subbing whole grain rye for the light rye in the recipe. Plenty of experimentation ahead, methinks!

Best of baking to you, too!
Ross

Francine's picture
Francine

David,

That is the same recipe that I use; wonderful!  I purchased a loaf of rye bread from Junior's Deli just to use for making altus.  My DH is a type one diabetic, and I figure between the rye and the sourdough I have his back covered.  This really is a good recipe; this is our families daily standard!

Cheers,

Francine 

varda's picture
varda

Hi Ross,   I put together this from a combination of one of Greenstein's formulas and a long and interesting comment from Norm on a post by David Snyder.   I believe that the flour that makes this truly authentic is Medium Rye.  You need a high gluten bread flour as well but I don't think First Clear Flour is essential.  The wet proofing environment mentioned below creates a great crust. 

1 lb High Gluten Bread Flour

1 lb rye sour (use medium rye to build up the sour at 85% hydration)

8-10 oz water

.6oz kosher salt

.5oz instant yeast

caraway seeds

Mix all ingredients for 5-10 minutes until the rye sour is well blended with the rest of the ingredients.    Wet a wooden bowl thoroughly and shake out the excess water without drying it.   Place the mixed dough in the bowl and shape by patting it gently into a ball with wet hands.  Brush water over the top with a pastry brush and then put a piece of damp linen over the the top of the bowl.   Let the dough double in size.  Stipple the loaf.  Transfer with wet hands to a peel covered with corn meal and then a hot stone and bake for 1.5 hours at 450 deg F.   Wait until completely cool to cut.   

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Varda.

The formula you give is for Kornbrot. This is an outstanding bread, but it is different from the Sour Rye.

David

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Your recipe is unlike any I've done myself - especially the shaking out of the excess water and the long baking time. On my list, and after noting David's assessment, highlighted with an asterisk!

Thanks again.
Ross

varda's picture
varda

Hi Ross,  I just made this again after a long absence.   It was pretty well baked after 50 minutes at 450 half with steam.   I have no recollection of why I baked it so long the last time but that was what was in my notes.   Also the shaking out of excess water is from the bowl, not the dough.   Hope you are progressing in your Jewish Rye explorations.   -Varda

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Thanks for the clarifications. Now that I re-read your post, I wonder how I managed to misinterpret the shaking out the water direction. What do I say but DUH! Dunno if it's the same with others, but I find I more often mis-read/misinterpret things when reading online than with hard copy texts. This is but one more instance of that!

Baking time comments noted. Thanks.

I am about to post an update on my excursion into ryes.

Best of baking to you!
Ross

jcking's picture
jcking

The addition of first clear (Beranbaums' Bread Bible) gives me the flavor I remember as a child growing up in central Jersey in the 50's.

Jim

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Sounds like the flavour imparted by first clear is something quite special.

Best of baking
Ross

ppschaffer's picture
ppschaffer

This formula used in a class I teach on NY Jewish Rye at a vo-tech is, IMHO, pretty good:

I. Wild Yeast, Long Fermentation, No-Knead Recipes

 

Recipe 1: Specific Measurements Recipe:

Walk Before We Run Recipe

Liquid Ingredients

1 cup (.50#)  rye starter at room temperature, stirred down before measuring

1¼  cups (.67#) water

½ cup (.20#)altus

 

Dry Ingredients

3¼ cups (1.15#) clear flour OR 4 cups (1.15#) bread flour

2 teaspoons (.03#) salt1/8 cup (.05#) caraway seedsGeneral Procedure for recipes 1, 2 and 3·         Mix liquid ingredients together·         Mix dry ingredients together
  • Add liquid to dry ingredients and mix well
  • “To oil or not to oil the bowl” that is the question
  • Dough in bowl; cover
  • Ferment at room temperature for 12 to 24 hours or until doubled in bulk
  • Apply water to counter and hands
  • Turn out the risen dough to wet counter
  • Gently “stretch and fold”; add more flour if necessary for a “workable” dough and knead until elastic (5-15 minutes)
  • Gently shape into ball (boule)
  • Return to a clean bowl sprayed with a non-stick coating or oil for 45 minutes to 4 hours or until almost doubled in bulk; this is the “proof”
  • NOTE: If time does not permit proofing or baking, dough can be refrigerated at any stage for up to 5 days.  Place dough in a baking pot and refrigerate.  The dough will proof in the refrigerator.  When you have the time to bake, remove from refrigerator and let proof further at room temperature until dough is, more or less, room temperature.  Thereafter, follow “Baking Procedure” below.

 

Baking Procedure

Preliminaries:

  1. If a shiny crust is desired, brush proofed dough with a cornstarch solution before placing in the oven AND after the finished bread is removed from the oven
  2. There are probably innumerable ways of applying heat to dough to change dough into bread.  Here are three:
    1. in a pot with lid,
    2. on a baking sheet (or stone) with a lid, and
    3. on a baking sheet or stone without a lid.   

3.  “To pre-heat or not to pre-heat” that is the question

 

Post-Preliminaries:

The following steps presume the dough has been proofed and is ready to bake

  • If pre-heating, place pot/lid in 400°F oven for 30 minutes
  • If the dough has been proofed in a bowl (as opposed to in a pot the dough will be baked in), gently remove proofed dough in one mass seam-side up, into pot
  • place container/lid (or baking sheet or stone) with dough in a cold oven
  • Bake 1 hour at 400°F. The purpose of the lid is to contain the steam within the vessel; what is the source of the steam?  The dough!  Why is steam important?  It produces the sought-after crust.  Steam can burn the face and eyes in a nano-second.  Be very careful to guard against steam burns! 
  • After 1 hour, carefully remove the lid keeping face turned away so as not to burn face or eyes. 
  • Continue baking for approximately 1 hour or until the internal temperature of the baked loaf is 207°-211°F.
  • Carefully remove from oven
  • Carefully remove from baking container; place on wire rack to cool

 

Post Baking
  • Apply cornstarch solution if desired
  • Cool on rack for at least 1 hour before slicing.  Why?
  • Cool on rack for at least 3 hours before wrapping.  Why?

Incidentally: George Greenstein, author of Secrets of a Jewish Baker, while he recommends clear flour, states: "You can substitute 3 1/4 cups all-purpose flour plus 3/4 c cake flour..." for the clear flour.

 

 

 

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

I don't use volume measures, but interested in your process here. Appreciate your contribution.

Cheers
Ross

arlo's picture
arlo

I do not believe anyone has mentioned it yet, but The Bread Bible by Rose Levy has a great Jewish Rye recipe. I find that it works quite well for my pastrami or corn beef needs! I think smittenkitchen has a variation of the recipe as well if you are interested in it.

Also a local bakery near me, Zingermans, has a pretty nice rye you can order online, or pick up if you are nearby. Here's a clip from an article last month about their rye;

In the April 2011 "Sandwich Issue" of Saveur magazine, Jane and Michael Stern—"two aficionados of traditional Jewish rye"—embark on a quest to "track down the country's tastiest loaves." "America's very best rye?" they write, "No contest. We found it in Ann Arbor, Michigan...It comes from Zingerman's Bakehouse, which makes loaves of rugged rye that are dense and springy, laced with the taste of hearth smoke."

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Love that description of Zingerman's 'rugged rye'. A hemisphere away from me, unfortunately - but I can dream!

Best of baking to you!
Ross

Janknitz's picture
Janknitz

Of RLB's Levy's Deli Rye, too.  I probably tasted a real NY Jewish Rye once or twice in my life as a little kid (My dad was a Levy from NY and we often visited), but I don't remember.  So I have nothing to compare it to, other than to say it tastes pretty good to me.  It's not a sour rye, but I'm not a big fan of sour, anyway. 

This is a time-consuming formula because of the preferment and two bulk fermentations, but the results are stunning.  I bake it in my clay baker for a wonderful crust.  This bread has a lovely texture, pleasant rye and caraway flavor profile, and keeps for a long time.  Every once in a while my husband and I get a craving for pastrami sandwhiches, but we can't get Jewish style pastrami here and the Italian style doesn't quite do it justice. 

As with all her formulas you need to CAREFULLY read the narrative, as the charts are not laid out well and are very confusing.  I usually re-write the charts in a more logical way and paste them in the book. 

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

I was intending not to post on this thread again until I had done more bakes of the NY Jewish deli rye recipes kindly offered above, as I haven't gotten on top of these breads yet. However, since Varda has revived the thread, I thought I might as well add a few notes on my progress thus far.

First up I had to create a rye sour, which I did according to the directions posted by DMSnyder here. Good clear directions led to a good result:

Some spiralling 'continent' development as the fermentation built up some nice aeration beneath the cover of dry rye flour was reassurance that things were progressing according to plan.

Since I had started with David's rye sour, I went on to try his recipe. Pretty good first-up result, except for the cloudiness of the cornflour glaze. It should be glossy. The matt finish I got is a result of brushing on too much. File under traps for new players.

The crumb looked lovely...

...but on eating, the bread was a little dry for my liking (although it doesn't look like it). I've never tasted NY deli rye, so don't know whether this is as it should be. Good flavour, which developed over the days following the bake. All in all, pretty happy with this debut.

Next, I tried Eric's recipe. The ambient temperature had dived, and despite extending proof times way out beyond those Eric uses and assessing the appearance and feel of the dough as signifying 'ready', I evidently underproofed this one, as the photo shows:

However, a thrilling surprise lay in store, hinted at by the marvellous aroma during the bake - the flavour was superb! I've never tasted anything quite like it before, even during my year in Germany way back, when I tried a lot of lovely ryes. Creamy, nutty, a hint of rye sweetness, and deep layers of flavour that opened up as the days went by. The crumb was soft and yielding and perfectly moist, and maintained itself in prime condition for several days. This crumb shot doesn't do it justice:

 I've realised, also, that I like the caraway pulled back rather than upfront, to which end I reduced the amount  in Eric's bread. Ended up just right to my taste.

So, most satisfying and exciting first steps in my rye excursion. I intend to make both these breads again, then to have a go at the Rye Queen's 100% rye. Will post separately on this.

Best of baking all!
Ross

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Like the looks of that one!  Bite, bite, byte.  Crunch and flavour!  

The first time I saw a glaze sloshed on a loaf (video) I thought it was water.  I contributed the slight consistency of any thickness to the brush picking up bits of flour as it went over the hot loaves and then mixed into the water.  It wasn't but that is how thin it is.  Try getting the glaze thin, very thin and see if that improves "the glossy look."   I don't glaze mine and my son says constantly... "It doesn't matter how it looks.  Taste!  That's what counts!"    And yet he does a nicer job at arranging a basket of sliced bread than I do.  My mil too.   

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Somehow overlooked responding when I meant to! Ta for your encouraging exclamations and for the tips on the cornflour glaze. Will make a thinner glaze and see how it goes next time, although I can imagine doing as you do and not bothering with this part as time goes on.

Cheers
Ross

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the stronger the sour seems to taste?  Wheat sour and rye sour seem to taste very different (aside from the grain difference) and it is easier to get a predominantly wheat loaf to taste too sour than a predominantly rye loaf.  It is a different kind of sour taste.  

Often here in Austria, the average person on the street will tell you they're not fond of sour tasting sourdough (white sourdough loaves) and think of sourdough as uncommon, a seasonal thing, yet they are unaware that the rye bread they love is a sourdough bread.  Go figure!

Mini

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

Is this also true for whole wheat sourdough?  Is it perhaps a lack of balancing flavors in refined wheat flour that leaves the white sourdough tasting too sour?

decatur's picture
decatur

 

I love Eric's Rye, but have recently found a recipe set out by a jewish baker in New York.  The recipe takes some fiddling with, but the result was awesome and my New Yorker husband was thrilled. 

http://www.cyber-kitchen.com/rfcj/BREAD/Rye_Bread_True_NY_Sour_-_pareve.html

 

 

 

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Thanks for that link. The rye sour described is Greenstein's, which is the one - or similar, at least - that DMSnyder posted on that I've linked to above, and that I used to create my rye sour. Also, I haven't compared word for word, but I think the NY rye recipe you've linked to is very similar to the one adapted by DMSnyder, which I tried initially (minus the dry yeast - meant to note in my 'Update' writeup that both my loaves were pure SD).

Back to your link - like some of the topping ideas and variations suggested! Printed out for future reference.

Cheers!
Ross

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

Rye Bread, New York Deli Style Caraway Rye

Source: Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day with modifications by stu borken

Description: Classic sourdough based deli style bread

------------------------------------------------------------

3 Cup lukewarm water

1 1/2 tbsp granulated yeast

2 tbsp Kosher salt

2 tbsp caraway seeds + more for sprinkling on top

1 Cup medium rye flour

5 1/4 Cup unbleached all-Purpose flour

1/4 Cup dried good quality onion flakes

cornmeal for pizza peel

cornstarch wash with pastry brush, boil up 1/2 tsp cornstarch with 1/2 cup water

Instructions:

In a 5 quart bowl or the bowl of a Kitchen Aid, mix the yeast, salt, caraway seeds, onion flakes and finally the water. Mix well. Add the two flours and mix well until just wet and all the flour is incorporated. Need not knead. Remove to an almost airtight container and allow to rest and rise for 2 hours and then place into a refrigerator for a couple days.

To use, dust with flour, the portion you wish to remove and cut it apart from the remainder of the dough. Shape it into a ball and then into an oval loaf. I place it onto the cornmeal dusted pizza peel at this time and place it into a moist warm oven for about 90 minutes.

Preheat your baking oven to 450-degrees, with one rack at the level of just above the middle and one rack just below it with a 8" X 8" cake pan in the oven getting hot with the preheating. Place a pizza stone on the upper rack. I remove the bread from the warming rising oven every 20 minutes or so and reshape the sides, propping them up if the bread seems to be sagging or spreading. When it is done rising, I slash it with deeper cuts toward the center across the bread and more shallow towards the ends. I then paint it with the cooked corn starch paste and then sprinkle caraway seeds and sometimes coarse salt granules.

Slide the bread onto the pizza peel and at the same time pour one cup of very hot water into the cake pan and create steam.

Close the oven door and bake for 35-40 minutes.

Remove to a cooling rack and do not eat until cool and cured! You will not believe what you have made.

This recipe comes from Artisan Bread In Five Minutes A Day with modifications by me, Stu Borken

Equipment: A plastic bin with a cover that is not air tight, pizza peel, standing mixer.

Background: This dough is very wet and can only be worked after it has set up and cooled for at least a day or better two. Then it ferments and becomes a sourdough for the final bread. It also becomes easier to handle and shape. It makes three good sized loaves which look for all the world like they came off a shelf from a New York Jewish style deli. I have also made the breads in baguette pans for appetizer loaves to use for chopped liver and chopped herring salad.

Yields: 3 breads

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Hi Stu. Just curious: why do you call this bread sourdough when it uses granulated yeast and no sourdough culture?

 

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

The dough ferments for days, even though it is retarded in the refrigerator and it taken on the sourness of a sour starter.  When it bakes off in the oven the smell of sour fermentation comes out of the oven vent and it will burn your eyes and nose if you get too close it's so acid.  I know that classic sours come from the native yeasts in the air, or skins of grapes, but, you can sour a starter with yeasts as well.  I'm not such a purest that I can't call my rye a sourdough, because it is.  I have made sour starters but they are so undependable that I love to use the one I submitted.  So, I'm not a classic sourdough baker.  I still love to bake and make pretty darn good breads.  People can't believe I actually make the ones I serve.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Yes, agreed, it is a sourdough.  

I think the confusion arises because too often many of us shorten "Sourdough Yeast/Bacteria Culture" to the more general term "Sourdough" which takes in more methods of fermentation.  :)

Mini

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

Something that comes out of oven vents and stings the eyes is likely to be acetic acid rather than lactic acid.  While it is a sour dough, it isn't "sourdough" as normally defined.  There is not very much acetic acid in sourdough.

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/23/6/1153.pdf

I was very proud of the French Sourdough bread I learned to make 30 years ago, from a brochure on sourdough that I bought through the mail.  It was made from putting commercial yeast in dough that sat covered in a warm place overnight before use.  There is no doubt that it was good bread, but I know now that it was not really sourdough.

If I were in charge of coining bread names, I would differentiate between sour rye bread and sourdough rye bread.

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

That puts the situation down very clearly. Must admit, I was scratching my head at the notion that rye made without a rye sour could be considered 'sourdough', but when Mini verified it I just sat back and thought, OK, so it seems the world of rye is quite different from that of SD bread generally. Now I see the distinction is being made between sour-tasting rye and genuine sourdough rye. I can live with that.

I didn't even dare embark on the subject of sourness in taste not necessarily being an intrinsic element of sourdough breads - brought that up before on another forum I no longer participate in, and was subjected to all sorts of name-calling and general abuse. It seems to be a topic that arouses unaccountably strong emotions!

Cheers
Ross

Canuco's picture
Canuco

Try Levy's RyeBread. It has been used here in New York's best deli's for over 50 years. Fink was the other bakery (out of business 1999) for authentic Jewish rye.  Personally, I would rather bake my own breads but I find that when it comes to Jewsih Rye bread / with caraway seeds, Levy's is a top-notch product.

Elagins's picture
Elagins

when Levy's was on the rocks in the late 1960s, they went to William Bernbach, founder and creative genius behind Doyle Dane Bernbach, who created the "You don't have to be Jewish" ad campaign.  At the time, Bernbach, a Jew, was less than impressed with the bread and remarked that it was so mediocre the "no Jew would eat it." Levy's has since gone out of business and after changing hands several times the brand is now owned by Canadian baking conglomerate George Weston Ltd.

if I were in the NY area and wanted a good commercial Jewish rye, I'd go with Orwasher's or Rockland Bakery. Still, nothing beats a good homemade loaf ...

just thought you'd like to know ...

Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Still, nothing beats a good homemade loaf ...

That said, I'm new to ryes...but that view sure holds true for the SD breads I do regularly. Thing is, it's mostly about the process and quality of ingredients. Add adequate knowledge and experience on the part of the baker and superb bread is well within the reach of the home baker, to which many here will attest. There are steps beyond, of course, and amateur bakers don't usually achieve the finesse of their pro counterparts, but for multiple reasons the flavour of good home-baked is very hard to beat. I get a kick out of new SD bakers sharing their delight with communities like this at producing bread far surpassing the flavour they are used to with most commercial product.

And hopefully, it means that given more time and experience drawing on the recipes and advice contributed to this thread, people like me who live a hemisphere away don't have to board a plane to New York to sample great deli-style rye! Although, if the AUD continues to strengthen...I wanna be a part of it Noo Yawk Noo Yawk...

A dream dormant too long, recently revived.

Best of baking all!
Ross

Elagins's picture
Elagins

stop off in San Diego and let's do some baking together!

Stan

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Your risk is that I might really make the trip and hold you to that! Would love to catch up with you and do a bake together! If that were to eventuate, I think I might have to insist on including some Californian wines in the agenda...if that's OK with you, of course.

Cheers!
Ross

Elagins's picture
Elagins

think organized religion might be a market?

Seriously, Ross, we humans can't live by bread alone, and I can't think of anything better than some fermented grape juice to wash it down.  That way, we can celebrate yeast in at least two of its incarnations. And if we add a well-aged cheese or two, and/or perhaps some cured meat, we will have constructed a perfectly balanced meal.

You're on, brother!

Stan

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Worshipping fermentation seems Druidic to me (and I am a born-again Druid).  I would gladly preside over a decantation incantation.   And on the subject of religion, I am expecting Inside the Jewish Bakery to be biblical.

Glenn

Elagins's picture
Elagins

but maybe it will find its way into the canon of baking, so we can describe its present situation as canon fodder.

btw, when I'm not being Jewish I subscribe to a Druidic heresy called Yeastianity. Our symbol is a spore and the centerpiece of our festival table is any blue-veined cheese, but preferably a ripe gorgonzola.

Stan

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Who can resist the three great fermented foods of Western Civilisation? Not me. Besides, Stan, I want to have a chat with you about that market you mentioned. Got this strong feeling there might be a business opportunity there. Of course, we'll need a few charismatic sales types of different nationalities to corner the market before someone else cottons on to the idea...

Now, I've got some saving to do!

 PS: After reading your comment, Glenn, I realised I'm also a Druid. A very devout one too, who partakes of the sacraments on a regular basis. Daily, in fact.

plevee's picture
plevee

the ultimate secrets will be in 'Inside The Jewish Bakery' when it finally appears?  B>}

Elagins's picture
Elagins

we have a whole chapter on rye breads, from black to damn near white. BTW, the book is coming out in hardback w/ dustcover, 336pp., cover price $24.95.  Official publication date is Oct 6, but we expect it to be in stores (NYB for sure!) sooner.

Stan

Floydm's picture
Floydm

If this site had a like button, I'd click it.  I can't wait to see the book, Stan.

Elagins's picture
Elagins

believe me, it's been a long and winding road, but now that the finish line is in sight, the feeling is indescribably great. thanks to you and the entire TFL community for all your continuing support. you guys are a real bulwark!

wmtimm627's picture
wmtimm627

I never would have thought that I would read about 2 of my favorite things to do here on TFL. Smoking meat is almost as enjoyable as baking bread. To see them melded together here was an epiphany.

I haven't read through all the posts yet, so this might be a bit repetitive. I love rye bread, but I keep wondering if there's a way to do it well without a starter. I'm a single guy and don't do baking on a regular basis, so I'm looking for something simple.

Billybob

thomaschacon75's picture
thomaschacon75

You'll be happy to know that rye starters are the easiest to manage. They're ridiculously cooperative and leaven rye bread so quickly (compared to other starters) that you'll go from mix to bake in less time than it takes to watch a movie.

You can feed the leftover rye bread to your rye starter, making the next loaf even better.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and mine takes a lot of abuse.  I've also cut my baking down a lot so I don't accept that as an excuse.   Reduced my baking enough to make it embarrassing.  But I won't stop feeding my starter.  It's lucky to get fed twice a month.    Sorry Stuart, without that aged mixed culture, it just isn't the same.  Close, but not the same.  Yes, I'm a sourdough yeast/bacteria cultured rye dough snob and there's no doubt about it, I love my rye.   I'm digging my "heels" in on this one.   

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

Read my submission.  I'm not a pro when it comes to breads but, this Deli Style Jewish Caraway Rye Bread with flavor note of onion, is the real deal.  Make it and each time you do, you will improve on your shaping and slashing and baking time and getting just the correct texture to the dough.  

I have got to learn how to upload pictures of my breads....I take as many pictures of my breads as I do of my grandkids.  I love to cook and make bread and I love to cook for my grandkids.  They are 4-6 years old and they love to work with me in the kitchen.  It's very interesting, they love to cook with me, they love the process of measuring and pouring and mixing...and being with me, but, they don't eat what they make.  They are proud of what they make, they love to show it off, but, they don't eat it.  Curious.  I don't make an issue of food and eating.

wmtimm627's picture
wmtimm627

I'll search for your submission, but something I noticed in one of my bread books was onion and caraway seed in the starter, but I can't find it now. I was certain that those two ingredients would make the starter so much better. Reinhart also mentions adding them to his "barms". I have a great niece that loves to bake as much as I do. I had no idea when she brought French bread to a family gathering one holiday the same day I brought my Van Over style baguettes.

Billybob

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Sorry I have been absent in this thread for so long. The holidays and graduation have had me strung.

When I get motivated to bake something, it's usually because I get a hankering for some special dish that goes with breads. Pastrami is such an example I spoke of above. Brisket, Corned Beef, smoked salmon or any kind of fully smoked fish (chubs), chicken liver pate, the list goes on and on. For my taste, Rye breads offer the best base and flavor combination depending on your meat selection. A nice dark pumpernickel similar to the Horst Bandle Black bread highlighted in "Bread" by Hamelman and steamed as per Andy's method is an amazing experience paired with any smoked and salty meat and cheese. You haven't really eaten if you haven't tried that.

The Pastrami method made from an already cured corned beef from the grocer is pure magic with a good deli rye. You need a smoker. There isn't any other way to arrive in gastronomic heaven without a smoker and this simple but slow process. I know there are a few out there who have asked for my killer Pastrami recipe. I'm about to do another batch and I promise to shoot photos and write up the whole process in home smoker/baker quantities, and will post it soon.  In the mean time, splurge and buy a small smoker and try a couple chickens to get the hang of it or some country ribs.  Half of the enjoyment (or a little more) of baking great deli rye is in what you put atop the slice. If you see a goo cured flat of corned beef at the market, buy it and be ready. They last a long time in the brine solution in the bag. I suggest getting the biggest one you can find or even 2 if your smoker will handle it.

I'll be back on this soon.

Ross: Your rye breads look great. I have switched to using thinned out egg wash instead of corn starch. It gives a nice gloss and holds the seeds or whatever on well. It might not be absolutely traditional but the breads look great IMHO. Last weekend I did a batch of Andy's Rye with Pumpkin and Sunflower seed that was washed with egg wash and covered in those seeds. I split the dough in half and baked 2 batard shaped seed loaves. Beautiful and the loaf had a nice gloss and the seeds stayed on for the most part.

Sign me up for the Druid Fest too. All things fermented!

Eric

Elagins's picture
Elagins

we've been missing you.  I think we may all have to make a pilgrimage to the Bay Area and descend on Glenn to honor the Druids and the gods of Stogianity at an appropriate time -- say the autumnal equinox? Or maybe the winter solstice, although that's awfully close to Christmas and SanFran is a lot less fun in December than it is in September.

What say you, Glenn?

Stan

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Some time soon after Eric discloses The Secrets, I will smoke a corned beef and bake some sour rye bread.  If it is worthy, I would replicate the effort three-fold and welcome all Stogianists to enjoy a feast here in the Holy City of Fermentation.   I may have to invite Brother David.

Glenn

Elagins's picture
Elagins

would that be Stoganistan?

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Eric--

Since you subscribe to the "all things fermented" philosophy and promise us the key to the Secrets of the Smoked Beef, I should mention that my particular sect of Druidism gives special adoration to things that are both fermented and smoked.  This little sect ritualizes the burning of fermented tobacco (in the form of well-aged cigars).  Especially enjoyable after a hot pastrami sandwich with a garlicky dill and a cold beer.  We call it Stogianity.

Glenn

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Hahaha, sign me up for the Stogianity ritual. I have a couple stogies in a special humidor I keep moistened with a fine brandy.  I'm in complete agreement with the need for such rituals.

Stan have you ever tried ripe tomatoes/white onions and garlic with a simple lemon juice and Olive Oil and crumbled Gorgonzola. I'm drooling now. Big chunks of sweet tomatoes please. Oh and Basil torn at the last second.

Eric

Elagins's picture
Elagins

I tend to resist anything that even hints at interfereing with that amazing mouth feel when a piece of ripe gorgonzola dissolves on my tongue, although I could definitely see the sweet-acid counterpoint of the other ingredients adding to the sensation. I'll have to try it.  Sounds not too dissimilar from the salad we make here with heirloom tomatores, cucumber chunks and Bulgarian feta (salty, tangy, rich), dressed with EVOO, a dash of fresh-squeezed lemon juice and some salt and pepper.  Amazing with fresh baguette and a big red wine, like a zin or a shiraz, that can resist the acid.

The stogies come later, with strong espresso as I gaze into the sky and contemplate the stars.

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

...poetry bloomed!

While I respect Stogianism, I trust that Yeastians who choose not to join their Stogian brethren in practice of their religious traditions may still join the expresso circle. And may I humbly move that the Day of the Feast during which Yeastians gather to communally partake of the Holy Trinity of Sacraments be known from this moment on as Yeaster?

If I don't make it over for Yeaster, in the name of Cheesus I'll do my best to get there for Pass-the-Pastrami-Over.

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

Looking closely, it seems that you are wearing a chef's coat....so, you get to indulge your passion and call it work???

Elagins's picture
Elagins

I have an adult daughter with Down syndrome and one of the highlights of her week is when we bake together. She's really taken to it, to the point where she insisted on buying her own KA Professional mixer to use exclusively when we bake together.

One day my wife and I were in a local Costco business outlet, which caters primarily to foodservice customers, and she saw the cook's jackets.  We thought it would be a great treat for Becky and I to wear them when we bake - making the special even more special (and keeping our clothes clean). That photo was taken on one of our bake days, and I liked it so much that I decided to use it both here and on nybakers.com.

As for indulging passion ... work, that's really what's behind the baking book, so not only do I get to bake all kinds of things I would never have thought of, but I've also had two years of close association with Norm, who's taught me an enormous amount about baking. And yeah, all those goodies ... tax-deductible!

It doesn't get any better than that.

Stan

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

A Yeastian family at worship is a beautiful sight.

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

What a beautiful picture.  

Stuart B.

Elagins's picture
Elagins

it's one of the most rewarding parts of my life

ehanner's picture
ehanner

This thread has me thinking where I can get some Viking duds for the photos.

Ross you are killing me with humor. Lol Pretty good for a mixed ethnic group I'd say.

If I don't make it over for Yeaster, in the name of Cheesus I'll do my best to get there for Pass-the-Pastrami-Over.  

Eric (The Barbarian)

EvaB's picture
EvaB

here's a question for you, does anyone have a recipe for "real" Winnipeg Rye, am not sure what type of rye it might be, its only sold in Canadaian supermarkets I think, but its a nice rye bread, and shaped in a long oval batard shape not round, not pan loaf and no caraway unless its ground and added that way!

This used to be just about the only rye you could buy in any store in the Peace River district of BC, but now we can buy others, all commercially made, but still better than some breads I've had to eat.

Elagins's picture
Elagins

hi Eva

Winnipeg has a fairly sizable Jewish population (sizable for Winnipeg, at least). odds are that Wpeg rye is a Jewish deli rye, which sounds likely, given your description.

Stan

EvaB's picture
EvaB

but wasn't really sure if I had the right thought, but you've confirmed it, so maybe I will have to try it out. It was one of my favourite rye breads and nice for sandwiches etc. I think it was the first rye I have ever seen in a store, and the last time we bought it my brother said it didn't taste quite like it used to, so suspect the ubiqutous "improved" movement got to it, but it was still tasty. Of course not quite like the specialty ryes we got from the organic bakery that wound up closing. They used to grind their own flour all organically grown, they did a number of grains including wheat, spelt,oats and of course rye. Fantastic breads, but the taxes from the city got to high so they wound up closing.