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Need help with ingredients from Spanish speaker!

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LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Need help with ingredients from Spanish speaker!

Hi everyone,
My DH & I moved down here to Argentina 3 years ago and I'm having bagel withdrawal symptoms! So, I've decided to make some.
I found a place that sells all kinds of flours, baking & health food ingredients.

Some of the ingredients I'm not sure are equivalent and I need help sorting through them.

I can buy bread flour at the supermarket. But recipes suggest high gluten flour to make bagels. This specialty store has harina glutinada. I don't know if this is high gluten flour for bread or if this is some sort vital gluten flour. They also have harina de gluten 100%. Can someone clarify these types of flours for me?

Alos, they have harina de malta & harina de cebada. One is malt flour & the other is barley flour. I'm confused as the bagel recipes either ask for barley malt powder or flour. Should I used one of these?

Otherwise I have a recipe that uses malt syrup. Is extracto de malta the same as malt syrup? Or am I complicating things too much?

Finally, what is the recipe for the lye water to boil the bagels in. Most recipes say "boil bagels" but don't give the water recipe.

Thank you all in advance for you help!
Mia

Dragonbones's picture
Dragonbones

Hi Mia, I'm not a native speaker and haven't shopped for flour in Latin America (although I've lived there), but I'm fluent in Spanish.  I would expect high-gluten flour for bread and bagels to say something like harina con alto contenido de gluten (high-gluten flour) or harina con alto contenido de proteínas (high-protein flour), or harina de fuerza  (strong flour, opposite of floja for weak or low-gluten flour) on the package. Of course, just like in English, unless they tell you the protein (gluten) content, it will still vary.

Also, extracto de malta should be the same as malt syrup, given that malt syrup is also called malt extract (syrup) in English. I would expect vital wheat gluten to be marketed as gluten de trigo vital or gluten de trigo or gluten puro. 

Harina glutinada sounds like flour with added gluten, i.e. high-gluten flour, but the problem is really how MUCH gluten has been added. I think some people on special diets use flours with bizarrely high gluten levels, which you wouldn't want. At dietetica integral dot com dot ar,  for instance, they list an harina glutinada with Proteínas 23,53% (!).

If you can find a baking supply store, they should be able to tell you the % protein (roughly equiv. to gluten), and help clarify these terms. If you can't find one, ask bakers -- they should know.

LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Hey Dragon & Paolo thanks for your replies. 

I know that harina fuerte is strong flour. That's not available here. Not that I've found yet though. And the lack of bread choice leads me to believe it's probably not readily available. 

Harina glutinada does sound like flour with added gluten. I was having doubts about it being useful for bread because this place has baking stuff but also have lots of "special" food items like for celiacs,  diabetics,  general health products. So my guess was that it's probably one of those "special" products (like you've confirmed in the link, ah!) and not bread baking. lol.  The flours are sold in bulk containers so I can't "read the labels" but I'll ask anyway.

Anyone know about the barley / malt flours in the bagel recipes and the lye solution? Should I skip the barley/malt flour & go with the malt extract?  

Thanks. :)

 

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

I will hazard that the "harina de malta" is pretty clearly the "malt powder/flour" that you want. Here the "malt" makes all the difference and even though (probably)made from the same barley grain, the (unmalted)barley flour is materially different.

Another suggestion is since you may be making a lot of bagels, from different recipes, buy both the malt flour and the malt extract. This is especially if you have to go out of the way to get these two items when you need them. I'm guessing the malt extract is in 'syrup" form, so store it in the refrigerator after opening.  Store the malt flour/powder in the freezer.

LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Ah, right. Thanks for the explanation re: malted/unmalted, d'uh! . :) 

I sort of feel like buying a bit of everything. Will check it out tomorrow. Today was a holiday so stores closed. 

bakinginQuito's picture
bakinginQuito

I wanted to confirm that all the terms translated by Dragonbones are correct...i'm not spanish native speaker but as I live in Ecuador since 1989 I really have a good fluency (my brother in law, ecuadorian, often ask me to  correct them their spanish written docs)....for future concerns or help, just count on me. Bye Bye Paolo

LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Thanks Paolo! 

diverpro94's picture
diverpro94

I can confirm Dragonbones, too. Sometimes they like to get fancy on their wording, but look for those phrases as subtitles. I would also add that you check the protein (proteínas) on the nutrition facts. Bread flour will have higher amount of protein than your regular all-purpose flour (harina de uso multiple).

 

As for the malt powder and malt syrup? Harina de malta is malt powder. In English we think of flour as a ground grain (normally of wheat). In Spanish the word for flour, harina, can also mean a powder of some sort. Extracto de malta literly means malt extract, but in America it is called malt syrup. Just be careful because I've heard that it can be a drink also.

 

I am Spanish by descent, but my family is from Mexico. I speak a Mexican/Latin American Spanish dialect.

LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Thanks for the reply. The stores sells the flours in bulk. So I'll have to ask if they have the protein info somewhere. Tomorrow I'm going to buy a little of everything! 

Dragonbones's picture
Dragonbones

I asked at two stores that sell the flours in bulk, and they both pulled the giant bags out to let me know the brands, and one provided the protein info, so it's worth a shot.

Mia, have you tried searching online?  It's hard to believe harina fuerte would not be available there. Do remember that bakers may have sources and you may be able to buy some off of them. Look for any baker selling bagels, for instance. Also try local chat forums and ask for the locations of baking supply stores. Do some digging for articles like this http://www.argentinepost.com/2009/06/el-bagelazo-delivers-bagels-in-buenos-aires.html and contact those bakers to see where they get the goods.

LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Dragon, thanks for looking that up for me. But I promise you I have tried ALL the "bagels" in Buenos Aires including those from Bagelazo and they are NOT bagels. They are bread with a hole! 

 

 

LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Well, I wanted to reply to all (ie to my original post) but it seems I can't reply to myself. Probably a good thing. Ppl might think I'm crazy. lol. 

Anyway, I went to that shop I found online today today and the results:

I asked at the counter & the harina glutinada is 32%! They didn't know what harina fuerte was so I'm guessing it's possible that's not the name they use down here. Well, or maybe they just deal with more specialty food items. Because, when I asked for bread flour I was told to go to the supermarket. They were out of malt flour. But I brought home the malt extract & poppy seeds. Yeah! 

Another thing I learned is that lye is a controlled substance. Lots of paperwork needed to buy it. So apparently no one wants to sell it. I'm I'd find someone willing sell it some where. But after 3 stores rejected my request,  I think probably I should just go with the baking soda water method. 

Lastly, I went to the supermarket for my flour. But this time ready to read the labels. They have two types of flour here 0000 (todos usos) & 000 (pan/pizza).  However, when I looked the nutritional info both types of flour contained 4.5 proteins per 100g. This was true for both types of flour on all brands except for one. In fact, the nutritional data was the same for all of them and both types of flour. That doesn't seem right. Why then would one be 000 & the other 0000?

There was only one brand that had 000 with 5.5 protein & 0000 with 5.0 protein. I got the one with the 5.5g/100. I hope that was right.

Good thing tomorrow is Friday. I might just have my bagels on Sat morning. :)

Thanks everyone for your help. 

Dragonbones's picture
Dragonbones

There's a thread on Argentine flour here just FYI; maybe contact other TFLers living in Argentina?

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/964/flour-types

I'm under the impression that the more zeros, the more refined and whiter the flour will be. I think you'd want the 000 for bagels. I found this list of recommended uses at one mill's site, http://www.molinocanuelas.com/harina_ind01_fichaC.htm

HARINA 000Harina de trigo tipo 000

Usos recomendados: Pan francés, panificados, bizcochería, pan de molde, bollería, facturas.
HARINA 0000
Harina de trigo tipo 0000

Usos recomendados: Pastas, pan de sandwich, pan de molde, pebetes, figazzas, bizcochería, facturas, pastelería fina, prepizzas, hojaldre, tortas, budines y bizcochuelos, alfajores, churros, berlinesas y donas.
HARINA 0000 REAL
Harina de trigo tipo 0000 Real

Usos recomendados: Tapas de empanadas, pasteles, pascualinas, pastas.

 This is consistent with the info at http://www.made-in-argentina.com/eng/food/flours/related%20topics/types%20of%20wheat%20flour.htm

There are four types of flour, as defined by the rate of mineral or ash: the materials or impurities from the grains of wheat.

The type of flour is defined by zeros of 1-4: 0000 flour is the finest and whitest.

The 000 for making bread because of its high protein content allows the formation of gluten and get the pieces keep their shape.

The 0000 is more refined and more white, having a low gluten formation is not a good gas container and the bread lose shape. Therefore only used for sliced bread in pastries, cakes, etc.

I'm not familiar with these designations, but from what I've Googled here, it looks like you should start by trying out the 000 (caveat: this is not expert advice), and keep looking for any labeled 'fuerte'.  The 4.5 protein per 100g figures don't seem right. I think all-purpose is around 10.5-11%, and bread flour is around 11.5 to 12.5%.   IF they're selling flour for use in bread and pizza, I imagine it would have to have protein of 10.5-12.5%, not 4.5 or 5! 

I'll venture a wild guess that if you reexamine the packaging they were listing the grams of protein per 500g of flour or per package (perhaps a 500g bag), effectively meaning that 5.5 would be 11% protein.

IF you can find the VWG (vital wheat gluten) you could add about 1.5 tsp per cup of flour and up the hydration slightly, according to Nancy Silverton. If you can't, I guess you could try using that glutinated flour instead of vital wheat gluten. Since it's about 1/3 gluten, add about triple the VWG amount, so use 1.5 Tbsp per cup of flour and see what happens!  Boil the bagels before baking them, and let us know how it turned out!

LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Yes. 000 is "bread flour" and 0000 is "all purpose flour". Both of these you find in every supermarket. I've use the 000 to make no knead bread and pizza dough. For my bagels I was hoping for something "stronger". 

Harina fuerte or harina de fuerza are not terms that seem to be used commonly around here.  Thus I go back to asking for "bread flour" and get told to go get 000. Well, at least now I picked the flour with the highest protein. To be fair, if you had asked me for "strong flour" before I wouldn't have known what you were talking about either. lol. 

You are right, I read the label wrong. It's 5.5 per portion which is 50g, so that would be 11 per 100g. That's better! 

Vital gluten? Is that the harina de gluten 100%? Or should I add some of that harina gultinada (which is 32%)? Or should I just go with the 11% flour? 

This is getting complicated. :P  Now I know why the bagels are not bagels!!

Dragonbones's picture
Dragonbones

You are right, I read the label wrong. It's 5.5 per portion which is 50g, so that would be 11 per 100g. That's better! 

Vital gluten? Is that the harina de gluten 100%? Or should I add some of that harina gultinada (which is 32%)? Or should I just go with the 11% flour? 

Yes, I meant per 50g but wasn't thinking clearly when I typed that. I would say just try two small batches with the 11% flour side by side, adding some of the harina glutinada in the amounts I mentioned earlier in only one of the batches. You'll have a small experiment and you can compare the results. Both should be good but one will be chewier than the other, presumably.  As for what the "harina de gluten 100%" is, it sure does sound like VWG but I would talk to some local bakers to confirm it. See if they're adding it in a certain percentage to change weak flour into strong flour, for instance.

LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Thanks again for the info. I'll have to get back to that store to pick up the other stuff. I'll just pick up both the flours (if they have them). Then I'll see what to do with them! At least I'll have them. 

I haven't started the bagel experiment yet. But I did try out my new 11% flour for pizza dough & I have to say, I'm not loving it. It could be the yeast as I got a different brands since they didn't have the one I normally use.  It just didn't taste good. And it was GREY. It didn't look sort of beige-ish, it was grey (or gray?). Is that normal? Could it be the yeast? I should had taken a picture. 

Dragonbones's picture
Dragonbones

You tried out a new flour and a new yeast at the same time, so it's going to be hard to separate the possible causes (although I'd bet on the flour first), and have also not provided details of your procedure for the pizza dough, so I'm not sure whether anyone will have a good answer for you. In the future, consider not changing more than one factor at a time so you can better understand the factors at work.

I'm not an expert here, just an analytically oriented type, trying to imagine possible causes. Might it have something to do with either not enough starches getting converted to sugars (e.g. due to lack of enzymes normally present due to the addition of diastatic malt)? Could the new flour have been an unmalted flour, and your previous flour had a tiny fraction of malt in it which is normally added in flour for bakers? I've read that some organic flours are unmalted, for instance; you can make up for this with the addition of a small amount of diastatic malt (1/10 of 1% by weight, acc. to one site; KingArthur says to use 1/2 to 1 tsp / 3 c flour). Or just switch back to your older brand of flour.

I've read that you should not add too much diastatic malt or you may interfere with the gluten and get a slack dough and maybe stickiness.

Or did you not do a long, slow rise period to give time for the enzymes and yeast to act? I would never give pizza dough less than a couple hours, myself, and like to build all my doughs in stages, typically at least with an overnight sponge or retard.

LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Sorry, life got in the way & dreams of bagels got put on the back burner. 

My husband is Italian and has been making pizza dough & fresh pasta since he was a kid. I am confident there is no problem with the technique.

We've since then remade the dough again with the old flour/new yeast and with the new flour/old yeast. I'm convinced the problem is the new flour. It's grey and tastes weird. I'm just going to dump it and start again with the flour that I'm used to. I think I'm just going to "go for it" with the old flour even if it does have lower protein content and see what happens. 

Thanks for all your help! :)

bakinginQuito's picture
bakinginQuito

I thougt that if you are in Argetina, perhaps you could be interested in  this oven...visit mercadolibre.com.ar and search Essen ecohorno.... their website is Essen.com.ar....Puedo escribirte en español? Buen fin de semana...

 

post data: if you have a good knowledge of spanish, you should not miss to visit elforodelpan.com, tequedasacenar.com or madridtienemiga..happy weekend and happy baking!

LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Si, me puedes escribir en espanol. :) te mando me mail. 

As for the oven, funny that you found it. Just the other day I saw an infomerical about that oven on TV!! It looked quite interesting. But I'm not yet that advanced. lol. I make the no knead bread in a pyrex dish with a lid, cinnamon rolls but not much else. I think the bagels even much to complicated for me! ;) :) 

Bueno, estoy probando, poco a poco. :) Gracias por los links. 

 

 

bakinginQuito's picture
bakinginQuito

to see Elgourmet, an argentinian tv channel completely dedicated to food and bakery...it' at least one year since they don 't broadcast "boulangerie", but if you live in Buenos Aires you might be interested in visiting, buying sourdough bread at L'epi, the bakery of Olivier Hanoq and Bruno Gillot (both french) and if lucky, you could know them!

El ecohorno, no es economico, en mi opinión....pero hay para todos los gustos: después de 7 años de hacer pan, sigo con un equipo de panadería bastante básico, siempre amaso a mano (no importa si es un kg de masa o 2.5 de masa de panettone), horno "normalito"...yo consigo un buen pan sin necesidad de una baking stone, pero sí reconozco: el vapor tiene un papel muy importante y sí escuché que es successful usar un pyrex con su tapa (a mi siempre se me ha quemado y pegado). Instead of the pyrex I use a couple of disposable aluminum pans (like the ones where you 'd bake perhapes a lasagna) with the second pan as a lid with good results..hope you understood my spanish...feel free to contact me for any kind of doubt (related or not with spanish). Happy baking. Paolo

LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Yes. I know them. They have a new program. Cooking not baking. I've also bought bread at their bakery. I've never met them but our friends have. Their bakery really is a lovely place. It's just too far for everyday.

Thanks for your offer of assistance & your message. :)  I may just take you up on it! :P

recapitulation's picture
recapitulation

Hi! I found this thread trying to figure out the flours in Argentina for breadmaking, thanks to everyone for their input! @MiniMinion - A place with a bagel and lox comparable to those I've tried in NY (and perhaps a good place to ask bagel-related questions) is Malvon - it's Serrano 789. I've been babying a starter for 15 days now from SourDough lady and am about to *try* baking with it, but I started looking at recipes here and have no idea what constitutes bread flour here. I bought "harina integral fina" from Casa China in Chinatown - but some of their stuff doesn't have nutrition labels. 

Casa China is also the only place I've found harina centano - rye flour. Where are you finding the malt ingredients out of curiosity? And have you found potato flakes? I find it hard to find stuff in such a large city. I've checked a dietetica in Congresso, two in Palermo, and there's a pretty good one in Belgrano, Verde Brote, on Juramento 2679 near Cabildo, but I still have trouble with translations here. I went crazy looking for caraway seeds, which google translated as alcaravea or comino (it is in the cumin family), but I finally found them at Verde Brote - they call them "kummel' which is the German word for it! I'm just starting the search for the potato flakes.

Here are my questions:

1. What is harina integral fina vs. superfina? What does the grind have to do with breadmaking? Wouldn't the protein be the same?

2. Is harina integral bread flour? whole wheat flour? Can I use that alone for breadmaking or do I have to add another flour (which) or gluten (I've seen this in for sale dieteticas)?

3. I've also seen postings on here for hard vs. soft wheat, which I barely understand, but what type of wheat flour is in Argentina?

LucyLemon's picture
LucyLemon

Sorry, I just got back to this thread as I've only just saw the email notice when I was going through my inbox. I can't really help you with the flour/gluten ratio thing. Theoretically you can use the bread flour alone. There are so many people on here better equipped to help you with that! My knowledge is limited to pizza dough, fresh pasta and a very simple no-knead bread. I've yet to get totally motivated to try the bagels. I'm sort of afriad of the lye, which I did finally find. I'll try Malvon, but I go with low expections. :) Anyway, what I can do is help you find some ingredients. There is "bread flour" at the supermarket. For white flour, you want the 000 type. I don't know about whole wheat bread making.  Harina integral is whole wheat flour. You can get a lot of stuff including harina centano and potato flakes (papa en escamas) at Casa Polti in Belgrano on the corner of Ciudade de la Paz and Juramento.As far as hard or soft wheat, I've read that Argentina produces mostly "spring" wheat, which I believe if hard wheat. Not 100% sure. PS, if you go to Casa Polti website you can down load the PDF of what they carry.