The Fresh Loaf

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rreplacing high-extraction whole wheat flour

codruta's picture
codruta

rreplacing high-extraction whole wheat flour

hi everybody! I need help with choosing the right flour for hamelman's miche (page 164). This is what I have (see picture). the characteristics are:

"whole wheat flour / ecological product / made in Italy / max. ash content 1.7% / gluten 13% / protein 13 g"

Can I use this a blend of 85% of this flour and 15% white bread flour?  Should I sift the whole wheat flour (to remove the bran) before using? thank you, codruta

 

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Wouldn't you want to use a lower protein flour for an airy miche with big holes?  I think 13% protein will yield a denser loaf, no?

Glenn

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Glenn,

Our European flour is very different to North American wheat.

The protein % figure is what it says it is.   That is not the same as the measure of the gluten content.

It is all about protein quality, not quantity.   We are not blessed with the same quality levels as you over there in North America.

It looks like the ash content is a maximum of 1.7%, so it is a genuine wholemeal type flour.   There are numerous proteins found in the outer parts of the wheatgrain which contribute nothing in terms of gluten potential.   In fact, a better quality of gluten potential is usually required in a higher extraction flour in order to combat the destructive effect that the sharp particles of bran have on the gluten network in the dough.

This looks like a good flour to use to me, although the information available here is very limited.   You may be able to get away with using a mix of plain [soft] and strong flour for the 15% portion of white flour used in the formula.   Personally, I'd use bread flour, but that's because I'm UK based, and all too wary of using any of our Plain Flour in bread.

Best wishes

Andy

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Thanks for the explanation, Andy.  

Glenn

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Stated just above the boxed in breakdown.   Does the flour in the recipe go thru a soaking?  :)   That would be prima!

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Mini,

My Italian is not good; we could do with Nico here.

A translation of "mediu do gluten" would be useful.   The protein content of 13g per 100g is clearly shown in the Nutritional Info below.

We both know that protein content is only a guide to gluten content.

By the way, I'm sure you are aware of this, but others might note that industrial milling uses a conditioning phase where the wheat is soaked for a period, then dried out before milling.   This allows for easy removal of the bran.

Best wishes

Andy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Anyway, I'm talking about soaking the bran flakes in the whole flour during or before the dough making.  Peter Reinhart likes to soak it.  Soften it up a bit.  I like the looks of this flour.

It comes down to the old balancing act with high extraction flour on one end and bread flour on the other (although I personally want to mix some rye into it.)  Use as much of the whole grain flour as possible but if you sift out the chunky bits the dough is more manageable but contains less flavor and fiber.  Those sharp little bran bits are still in the high extraction flour willing and able to cut up gluten strands.  (What if we sift them out, boil them up and throw them back in? ...?)  The less one uses of this flour the easier the bread dough handling.  Optimal for handling is no bran flecks but with the bran... we get added ash.  (Hey I like 1.7!)  Makes for a sturdy hunk of sourdough bread.    A production baker (with a schedule to keep) desires more manageable dough  but for the Artist, nutrients (karma and crust) the high extraction flour is desired.   The challenge for the Artist is in keeping the loaf together.  :)

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Andy,

It seems to me to be an Italian flour for the Romanian export market so I wonder if the language is Romanian? My guess is that 'conjinut mediu 13% do gluten' means roughly 'contains around 13% gluten'. As codruta states and you have divined, it is also wholegrain [integralã] and organic [ecologicã]. Sounds like a nice flour!

Best wishes, Daisy_A

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Mini, Daisy_A,

I do so agree about the attractions of this flour, and said so above.

Mini your ideas for soaking the bran seem great to me.   I'm all for using the wholegrain and enjoying that full 1.7% ash.   Have you ever tried making an overnight ferment with bran, and adding that to a bread dough?   Apparently it's a great way to break down the phytase which prevents us from benefitting from all the extra vitamins and minerals in these lovely wholegrain flours.

But my point remains: the protein per 100g of flour is not the same as the potential gluten content.   Yet the 2 figures quoted on the side of the packet read the same.   One of these is wrong!   For instance, Gilchesters wholemeal can claim a protein content of over 11%.   But, no way is the potential gluten content any more than 10%, and probably less.

Daisy_A, thank you for notes on the translation; I did have an incline and I'm sure I'm on the right lines here.

Best wishes to you both

Andy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

not all the protein is gluten so that both say 13% is odd especially since we know it is high extraction with gram bits.  what if the gluten is a low 13% and the protein is a high 13% and the numbers are rounded to the nearest whole number?  Ok, pushing it a bit...  you're right, it just doesn't add up.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Andy,

See your point. Gluten is likely to be less than protein, then.  Best wishes, Daisy

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hello codruta,
Franko kindly found a formula to use, to calculate a replacement for high-extraction flour in a recipe:
(Franko's post, and lovely miche, and the link to the calculation):
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21368/last-loaf-2010
http://hamelmanchallenge.blogspot.com/2010/06/tech-note-high-extraction-flour.html

Shiao-Ping had asked a question of a miller, regarding substituting for high-extraction flour; the question and response are here:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23555/miche-%E2%80%93-magic-aleurone#comment-169965

I would love to hear how your Miche, Pointe-a-Calliere turns out, using your flour substitution.
I tried making the Miche, Pointe-a-Calliere last weekend, with using 85% coarsely-ground whole-wheat flour and 15% bread flour.
The bread was delicious, but gluten did suffer (lots of extensibility!). My whole-wheat flour had big pieces of bran.
I think, too, for the flour I was using, two hours for final proofing may have been generous!
from breadsong

codruta's picture
codruta

thank you all for your responses, links and sugestions. Unfortunately, I wasn't very succesful with my Miche. I cant figure if my levain was overriped when I used it (even though I din't wait 12 hours as recomanded in hamelman's book, but only 9, because is very hot here) or I didn't develop the gluten as much as I should have, and if anyone tells you can't overbake bread, well... that is just not true... and my miche is a "living proof" for that. it's too flat, too sour and burnt. it is also very light, I thought it will be heavier (it was 1000g of dough). I baked it today, but I don't expect to change the flavour completely till tomorow. my boyfriend tease me calling it "frisbee". what can I say..? it realy looks like a frisbee. :(

here are some pictures of the process, if anyone spots some mistakes i made on the way, please point them out. I want to give this bread another chance, but before that, I want to know what i did wrong this time.

the pictures represent:

1-the dough after autolyse and levain

2-after mixing dough levain and salt

3-first fold (after that, I did 3 S-F at 40 minutes intervals)

4-shaped before final proofing

5-after 2 and half hours of final proofing

-final product

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi codruta,

Don't let your boyfriend get away with teasing you about frisbees!

If your final bread is too sour, then I agree you must have allowed the leaven to get too ripe.   Take the leaven when you think it's ready, not when a book tells you to; be confident about that, I've seen your bread photos and you know what you are doing.

Additionally, there is probably overproof in the final dough, although that is a harder thing to spot with wet doughs in bannetons.

Some on here may disagree with my last point, but you can take it or leave it, I don't mind.   The dough is too wet.   Not by much at all, but I would cut down hydration by 2 to 5%.

You're really not too far away here.   On the baking side, just take note that high hydration takes more baking, so you have to anticpate this to avoid burning the bread.

Best wishes

Andy

 

codruta's picture
codruta

thanks, andy. your words are kind and encouraging, and they came exactly when I was down. I've been reading about this bread for a long time, and i've been playing with the idea of making it, I was trying to imagine in my mind how this must taste, but I always find myself intimidated when it comes to round loafs... Maybe if I succeed one time, I'll get over my fear. I'll be doing this bread soon, cause I need to prove myself that I'm capable. I'll keep you posted.

thanks again, andy. codruta

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

-first fold (I did 3 S-F at 40 minutes intervals)

-shaped before final proofing

-after 2 and half hours of proofingI

I have to agree with Andy, a little dryer dough would  help as sourdoughs tend to get wetter as they ferment.   If you feel the dough, and don't look at the clock, fold the dough as it starts to rise, relax and run sideways.    A wetter dough needs more folds more often.  Keep folding, maybe every 30 minutes with your warmer temps. until you feel the dough getting more strength.   If you fold it and think it can go for another round of folds (because it seems stretchy enough) do it again.  Let it rest when you think it wants to tear.

Don't let frisbees get you down.  (use the site search machine, there are lots here!)  Important is flavor.  A good sour bread is great with sliced tomatoes and such.   I've made a few myself.  

Mini

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi codruta,

Welcome to TFL and thanks for sharing your breads! It's interesting to know what you are doing with this lovely looking flour.

With best wishes, Daisy_A

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hello all,
codruta, thanks for sharing your photos. And thanks to Andy and Mini for your helpful comments!
codruta, I tried this Miche a second time yesterday, changing my flour mix. I didn't think I was seeing enough bulk fermentation activity so let the dough bulk ferment an extra hour, with a one-hour proof...and this one spread out worse than my first try.
After barely managing to get it loaded into the oven, I baked a frisbee too, a bit puffier than the last one, but a frisbee all the same :^)
I'm going to try again, with a shorter bulk ferment, a shortened proof, and lower hydration...and hope for success with a third try for this bread. It tastes so good, I really don't mind trying again.
I hope to have something that's worth posting one day, and will post comparative photos of my first tries then...
Good luck with your next Miche, codruta, and I admire how you were able to keep such a nice round shape! As my second one was spreading and overflowing the peel, it looked like it was growing an arm!
:^) from breadsong

 

 

Syd's picture
Syd

To Codruta and Breadsong,

I have never baked this bread, so I have nothing to compare to, but, if it is any consolation, Hamelman does say in the side notes:

"The baked loaves are large, somewhat flat in appearance, with large interior air holes,  a chewy crumb, and an excellent keeping quality."

Bread  p.165

I would say that description pretty accurately fits your results.  It is, after all, an 82% hydration dough, packed with lots of gluten-piercing bran and it was developed to replicate a typical early European settler bread.  I would imagine an early settler bread would have looked very similar to what Codruta made.  I would call that a success.

Syd

codruta's picture
codruta

mini, the final rise in the banneton was 2 and a half hours.

Next time i'll try folding every 30 minutes, see if the results will change.

It is not the sour taste that bothers me (because today, after 20 hours after baking, the sour taste is not very obvious, and I think the flour I used was good, cause it has a nice aroma), but the bitter taste of the burnt crust. Being so much crust all around, ans so little crumb, the bitter taste is hard to be ignored.

My conclusions are that the starter was a bit overripe (I say that because it was not a domed form, but it was beginning to colapse- I think you can see that in the first picture- although it smelled extremely pleasant), and the final rise time was too long. I'll stick with the same flour next time, but I'll try to decrease the hydration a few procents, do 4 or 5 folds, and see how all these will influence the final product.

codruta

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hello codruta, I came across this post - with a wonderful looking example of this bread - passing along the link in case it's of interest to you:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15532/miche-pointe%C3%A0calli%C3%A8re
There's some discussion of flour, and Shiao-Ping has written about her mixing/folding technique for this bread.
:^) from breadsong

 

codruta's picture
codruta

hi breadsong. Shiao-Ping is extraordinary, as usual. I'm sorry I did not saw her post before. But her post raise a question in my mind. Hamelman says, that this bread, if I remember corectly, does not favor overnight fermentation. And yet, shiao-ping refrigerate the dough 12 hour prior baking. Is that because she did not follow the instructions, or am I missing something?

anyway, thank you for the link, I absolutely love it!

codruta

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hello corduta, so glad you liked the link!
I am guessing, but I am thinking Mr. Hamelman's recommendation may be related to the ash content of the high-extraction flour he says he uses (.92%)?
I was just reading in Advanced Bread and Pastry, page 132: "For long fermentation and proper extensibility, ash content between .47 and .52 is preferred."
I'm wondering if the ash/bran makes the dough so extensible it won't stand up to a really long fermentation process?
Shiao-Ping achieved a wonderful result with her method and flours used - it sounded like she was replacing the final proof with any proofing that occured during retarding (baking right from cold)? It certainly did work out very well!
from breadsong