Tartine Basic Country Bread driving me insane
Hey all:
Been lurking here for months, but finally moved to see if anyone has any ideas.
I've spent the past few weekends trying to bake the Basic Country Bread from the Tartine book, and have run into nothing but failure.
My starter is going great guns, rising and falling regularly, no problems. Make the levain, and does great. Expands about 30% overnight, and passes the float test.
Mix the dough, let it rest for autolyse, add remainder of water and salt. And then...nothing.
I just don't get any rise during bulk fermentation. Been following the directions to a T, except for my room temp at home, which is in the 70 degree range (or, it was this weekend). Do the turn in the container, but just don't get any action.
Let it go for 12 hours (!) on Saturday, and had about 5% rise after that time.
I'm a little bit at the end of my rope on this -- I see people saying that the proof times in the book are long for them, and I'm just not seeing any action at all, really. Which is a total contrast to what seems like a thriving starter and levain. (Like, that same room temp with the levain gives a great expansion).
Any ideas? I'm about to give up on this recipe.
I take it that this is sourdough starter. How old is the starter? What does it smell like? Seventy degrees is a little low for the rise, 80 to 85°F would be better. Try putting the dough in the oven with the light on and the door cracked so the temperature doesn't get above 87°F.
Ford
Starter has been going for about 1 month -- it's behaving just as the book claims it should. Sour smelling after the expand and collapse, nice and sweet after feeding and during its ferment.
Temp certainly seems like part of the issue, but I'm baffled that i don't really see any signs of fermentation after 12 hours at 70 F.
The best advice I can offer is to use the standard water temperature calculation for the desired dough temperature of the final dough indicated in the formula, and then do your best to keep it in that range during the bulk ferment. This is critical to having a healthy dough that's well populated with natural yeast cells. I agree with David that you won't see the same kind of activity in the dough that you'd normally associate with commercial yeast, but if the temp is in the mid 70F-80F range there's lots going on, just at a slower pace than what you might expect.
Hi Mark,
I'm a little curious about your use of the word "collapse." Maybe you're trying to use a starter that has risen past its prime. I'll leave it to other more experienced bakers to chime in here.
Barbara
I strongly suspect you do not have a problem other than incorrect expectations for dough behavior.
If you are following Robertson's directions and turning the dough every 30 minutes during bulk fermentation, the dough will not expand much in volume. (20% at most.) However, If you ferment it in a glass or transparent plastic container, you will see lots of little bubbles throughout the dough. That's CO2.
If you stick a wetted finger 1/2 inch into the dough and it springs back slowly, it is fully fermented and ready to divide and shape.
Hope this helps.
David
I know that the Tartine recipe doesn't expand much, but I'm getting almost nothing, 10% or less. I'm in a transparent container, and don't really see any signs of fermentation in the dough.
It's just not fermenting in any time frame that makes sense to me -- perhaps its temperature, although the levain does fine at the same temps.
I worked on the starter for this bread for a month it was finally ready and I made the bread. I wasn't so happy with it. I think I would rather use a little yeast. I have been using the recipes from Jim Leahy's book from the Sullivan Street Bakery. Basically the same concept as Tartine but you do use a little bit of yeast. You should look into that book I think the bread that I have made so far is delicious
It sounds like your starter isn't up to speed to me. The lack of bubbles is a sign of low activity. So, regardless of what you have done so far, I suggest trying the following to get your starter tripling over night for a few days.
First using AP flour and a couple pinches of WW, mix a feeding of 25-40 g of old starter and 80g room temp water. Be sure to dissolve the old starter in the water well. To the slurry, add 100 g of the flour and mix until combined. Leave the fed starter on the counter at room temp for 12 hours and repeat the above procedure. If you miss the time by an hour or two it's not critical but try to get two feedings in spaced roughly 12 hours apart.
After 4 feedings, skip the ww addition. After a few days, you'll be seeing much better activity and the culture population should be approaching stability. From that point, if you want to use the starter as prescribed by the author it should work. Or you could simply use the starter with the recipe. I'm sure this will work. It might take a week to get the activity where it will triple over a 10-12 hour period but I doubt it.
Keep us posted.
Eric
Do you beleive if stirred 2-3 times a day it may help him?
Jim
Stirring does help some but as Franko says below, controlling the temperature is important. He should get reasonable activity at 70F and better activity at 76F. My starter fed the way I suggested will triple at 68F in 10 hours.
Eric
I find that sourdough (no-knead) takes from 18 to 20+ hours these days in my locale (PA). Until I just let it go until doubled, I was concerned about my starter as well. Now I'm getting the results I expected all along. Maybe just give it more time to rise.
Are you using tap water that is treated? I found that when I used that it essentially killed my starter - I use bottled now and get good results.
I baked that bread last week and also went nuts trying to tame the gloppy dough. I also started to follow Robertson's directions for the final rise (after "shaping" the loaves and putting them in the baskets) but realized, after consulting Hamelman's high-hydration ciabatta recipe, that 2-3 hours was far too long. I had already gone past the 2-hour mark. At any rate, I baked the first loaf in my newly purchased Lodge combo-cooker (suggested by Robertson, of course), put the second rising basked in the fridge to keep it in check. Then I baked the second ("batard"--more like an ocean liner) directly on the stone (which I had kept on the oven rack just below the combo-cooker to preheat) with steam. Of course, even though the baskets were dusted profusely with a rice/bread flour mix, part of the dough stuck and had to be peeled off, degassing the whole thing slightly--ouch! Well, lo and behold! Both loaves (the first looked quite respectable, slashes and all) tasted fabulous--and the fragrance of the crust was to die for! The second was a huge "slipper"--classic, I thought!
So--even though I vowed never to bake with such high hydration again, that bread tasted as good or better than anything I've baked before (including many sourdough formulas). Persist and prevail!
Joyful
Amen brother!
I have been making the Tartine WW alot lately and I like it. My levain grows much more than 30% more like 2x. I mix a big spoon of starter with 400 grams of 1/2 white and 1/2 WW as the book says to make 2 batches. I use a slap techneque for the start and finish with stretch and fold. I liked the idea of working in the container but it not make the best bread.