The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Cold start

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Cold start

I had been afraid of trying the method of " Cold start" which means you start to bake from  a cold oven.  So I finally tried it out.


I was surprised how rise the dough in the oven.   I really don't noitce the difference of the taste between " Cold start" and " Regular start "  I tasted slightly more moist in the bread which is used " Cold start". I also felt that the sides of the bread is softer than the bread is baked normally.  I want to test to use 2 pullmans to compare.. but I have only one pullman. I will test it when I get another one.



This is Yippee's Japanses style sandwich bread with water roux starter. 


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11745/recipe-japanese-style-sandwich-bread-water-roux-starter-sponge


It is very similar texture with my Japanese sanwcich bread. When you want really soft crumb, I recommend you to expand the time of proof, or you can retard it at 50F for a couple hours.   It is a great sandwich loaf.  It is fun to try new things.


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Next:  I made a 50% whole wheat loaf which I am studying the formula.


  I waited until the dough reached to the top of the tin.


 After I put it in a cold oven, I set up 284F for 20 minutes. The time on the picture past 8 minutes after I put the tin.  The picture below : See how much rose is the dough in the oven after 8 minutes.




" Cold start" method:


For Electric oven:


1.Spray water around the wall in the oven 4 times, then put the tin loaf in the oven.


2. Set up 140℃/ 284F for 20 minutes and  bake.


3. Increase the temperature at 200-210℃/400-410F for 25 minutes.


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For Gas oven:  * Generally gas oven heats up faster than electric oven


1. Spray water around the wall in the oven 4 times, then put the tin loaf in the oven.


2. Set up 100℃/212F  for 10 minutes and bake.


3. Increase the temperature at 150℃/302F for 10 minutes..


* Note  You can ajust the time and the temperature because every home ovens are vary.


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* How to shape and mold a mountain loaf: http://ameblo.jp/chez-noir/entry-10776060966.html


( We  call the loaf : YAMA(山) SHOKU(食) PAN(パン))  山 lookes like this loaf, doesn't?


Note:


1)Gently press down the preshaped ball shaped dough which is seamed up with your whole palm, and make a oval shape using a rolling pin. ( rolling from the center toward outer side to all the direction. * not only up and down )


2)You can press the center gently after folding 1/3 from the outer side, then rolling it into a snail shell shape.


Best wishes,


Akiko

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Thank you Akiko for posting these pictures.  i have read about cold starts here too but have been experimenting with other things and haven't tried it yet.


A couple of questions.  Do  you have a baking stone in your oven?  I ask because I have one in mine and it takes longer to heat things up with it in it and I am wondering if that would change how my loaves bake....I'm sure it would be longer...


Next - I noticed you started out with a lower temperature and then increased it after 20 minutes.  I am used to doing the opposite.  Can you explain why you did it the way you did?


And another question.  I have seen the Pullman pan loaves on your threads and on a couple of others and one thing I am curious about....When the bread bakes they bake together and have to be 'pulled' apart to get 3 individual loaves....How do you keep the exposed edge of the bread from drying out once you separate 2 loaves?


Thank you!


Janet

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Nice to meet you, Janet


I recommend this method to you if you have a trouble with loaves don't rise well in a oven or you want to make  a tall loaf.  The "Cold starts" doesn't damage the crumb in the bread. It tastes good.



Do  you have a baking stone in your oven?



Yes, I have.  I always put the tin loaf pan on a baking stone. I have used this method since I read "Bread bible" by Rose Levy ZBeranbaum.  Thank you for mentioning about this! I better try to bake a loaf on a cold oven without a baking stone, it may have harder crust if I want to.  It is very soft around the sides of the loaves when It is baked in a cold oven.   My children and husband like the softer sides of the bread, though.



Can you explain why you did it the way you did?



I got this method from a Japanese baking book and I saw many Japanese home bakers use the way. Their result are remarkable.


*1About starting out with a lower temperature: Why? A:  This purpose is to rise well in a oven that increases the temerature slowly. ( The dough can still rises well  in a cold oven)


* About increasing the temperature after *1  Why? A: This purpose is to make a good crust.



How do you keep the exposed edge of the bread from drying out once you separate 2 loaves?



 


Could you show me the loaves that you talk about? 


Best wishes,


Akiko



 


Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Thank you for the answers to my questions.  I have pulled your picture down so I can ask how you cut these loaves.  


In the picture it looks like 3 small loaves all attached.  Do you pull them apart once they are baked or do you leave them together as a group?  To my eye, if someone were to pull them apart that would leave an exposed crumb once the loaves are separated....so how do you cut into these beautiful loaves of yours?


It is good to know you got good results with the stone in place in your oven.   I leave mine in all the time because it is too heavy for me to be taking it in and out all of the time.


I will try your method soon and see what results I get.  Today I baking in a cast iron lidded pot to see if I get good steaming on my lean loaf.  I have not done this before so I am always a bit nervous when I try something new!  But I love trying new things anyway.... :-)


Thank you,


Janet


teketeke's picture
teketeke

Hi, Janet


I appreciate all your work to explain it to me very well. Thank you, Janet.


When I use  this Cold starts method, The loaves are too soft to slice.


This is what I normally slice a loaf like the picture below:


2009年3月 - ごまさば日記 ( I borrowed this picture while I googled to look up)


For the mountain shape loaf with the cold oven method, I will slice like thie picture below:


 ( I borrowed this picture while I googled to look up)


I hope that helps you.


I don't like to take the baking stone out and put it back in again and again. It is too heavy, and I am afraid that I may drop the baking stone on the inner glass while I am taking it out.  I understand how you feel about it.


:) I love trying new things, too!    I hope your new things go well!!


Best wishes,


Akiko

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Thanks for the pictures Akiko.  They are very helpful. :-) I didn't think to Google like you did....


My experiment went well today with my bread.  The cast iron pot did make a strong crust but so did the loaf that I just put in on the baking stone and sprayed with water in the beginning...Cast iron was very bulky to deal with so it is nice to know a few sprays of water works just fine!


Janet

teketeke's picture
teketeke

 I am very happy to hear from you are successful of a new steaming method. :)  I always put a bathtowel on the inner glass before I spray water in the oven. Please be careful not to spray to the light in the oven, too.   I broke the inner glass once when I pour luke warm water in a hot saucer  that has some rocks in to make steam for baking baguettes.


写真


Do you know about SylviaH's steaming method?


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20162/oven-steaming-my-new-favorite-way


I always use the hot towel steaming method for any kind of breads except a tin loaf and rolls that doesn't need so much steam.


Best wishes,


Akiko

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Yes, I know about protecting the glass and the light.  I read lots of warnings in my books and here!  It would be an expensive lesson to have the glass break.  How did you get yours fixed?


I have tried Sylvia's method but found it too much work with all the pans and wet towels.  I didn't see much of a difference from when I just spray.


I have also used hot water in a cast iron pan beneath my baking stone but didn't like that either because my stone takes up a lot of room and the pan beneath it cools the stone that sits above it so the loaf that sits in that spot doesn't spring as much.  I read a thread that Debra Wink posted about how to divert the steam using aluminum foil but that didn't work either.  The stone was still cooler above the pan!


Can't remember who posted about just spraying every 2 min. a couple of times but that is what I keep going back to and it continues to give me good results as long as I do not overdo it.  


Think my favorite method of steaming is using my ROmertopf ceramic baking dish.  It is light and easy to clean.  Just am limited as to what shapes I make my loaves when I use it.


Thanks for the warning and the photo.  Glad it didn't shatter and cut you!


Janet

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Your welcome, Janet


I am glad to know you already consider about the glass and the light:) Thank you for telling me of your experience that is very informative.  My husband called the company to get the part. It took a couple days to deliver which is pretty fast even though we didn't pay for the fast shipping cost.  My husband fixed it following the manual that came with the glass part.


Your favorite steaming method is interesting! Could you tell me how to do it with more details?  I want to try.


Best wishes,


Akiko

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Morning,


A few days ago I did a search here on steaming methods and read a lot of threads on the subject.  I can't recall where I read the one that I then tried and have like so far but this is what I have done:


I had 2 sandwich loaves I was baking.  I slashed each and sprayed the tops of both loaves right before putting them in the oven.


I then set my timer for 2 min. and when it rang I sprayed only one of the loaves again. (I just reached into my oven with my sprayer (Like one I use for spaying my plants....you can get them at most grocery stores.  Just a plastic bottle with a spray nozzle)


I set the timer for 2 minutes and then sprayed the one loaf again.  I did this one more time.


Results:  The loaf that got sprayed 1 time only before going into the over did have spring but didn't open up as much as the one I sprayed 3 times.


Loaf I sprayed 3 times opened way up...in fact I think it opened too much and will therefore spray only 2 times next time.


It is simple and easy to do and I could see the results right away because both loaves were baking together.


The other way that I like is using my Romertopf clay baker.  I shape my dough into a battard and line the baker with parchment paper so the dough doesn't stick.  I let it proof in the baker bottom and I heat the top of the baker when I pre-heat my oven.


 When the loaf is ready to bake I put the top on and bake!  I usually take the top off for the last 10 or 15 minutes of the bake so the crust gets some color. This method produces a nice moist loaf and the clean-up is VERY easy :-)


Here is the link to this type of baker.  I have the #110 and the #109.  I prefer the smaller one because it holds 1000g of dough which is what I usually work with and what my family can eat before it gets too old.  


http://www.romertopfonline.com/clay-bakers/


Have fun with your experiments.  My procedure may change as I continue to learn more from what I read here but for now this seems to be what I like because it is simple and my family isn't too picky with results.....I just have fun trying new things out!


Take Care,


Janet

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Oh my, Janet! Thank you so much for taking the time to explain it to me.
I didn't know the name of " Romertop"although I have seen the ceramic pan here.


I saw the steaming method here, too. But it is used for buns.


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20392/making-cemitas-great-sandwich-rolls-puebla-mexico


I like Sortachef's sandwich rolls.   I better try your way soon, but it is going to be used a pullman instead of the Romertop.  I used Sortachef's spray method for buns, but it didn't work well.. I didn't set up the timer actually.  I should do it next time.


Thank you for the link! I will put it on my baking shopping list.  I also change my baking style when I found out the new method is better.  Thank you for sharing your experience, again!


With very best wishes,


Akiko

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Here is a link that I got some information off of too that you might like to consider. Easy solutions so we don't ruin our ovens!


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/16925/covering-vs-steaming


I read your link above and it is similar to my method except he uses a brush to put the water on with instead of a spray bottle.


Like with all of this there are lots of ways to achieve the same thing...


We get to have fun trying them all out....  :-)


And drive our family crazy while doing it :-)


Let me know what happens with your experiment.


Have FUN!


Janet


 

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Hi, Janet


I think that you and me have tried so many kinds of steaming method.  I also tried the disposal turkey pan but it didin't work for me. I wonder why... 


When I sprayed water around the top of the loaf, I couldn't take the loaf out the pullman because the water worked as glue.  So I don't put egg wash nor milk  any liquid on the loaf in the tin.  Although I could use the spray water  on the buns though. I better try.


Thank you for everything, Janet.


That is really fun!!


Akiko


 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Hi, Akiko:

I too would be intimidated to bake with a cold oven if there's no proper instruction to follow. You've set a good example for us. Thank you for sharing!

Yippee

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Your welcome, and thank you for your kind words, Yippee! 


Best wishes,


Akiko

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Thank You akiko for showing us how a cold start could work for panned/mold breads! and thank you for your precious e-mails!


khalid

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Your welcome, Khalid :)


A cold start could be used only for panned/ mold breads. Otherwise the bread ( especially high hydration dough) will be flatten because they don't have any support to keep the shape without a pan.


Best wishes,


Akiko


 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Thanks for reminding me it is fun.  :-)  Sometimes I feel like I am just doing the same thing over and over and forgetting everything I have learned in the process!!


It is interesting that many have had the same results we have.  I learn from others a lot too so some mistakes I do get to avoid!


Someday I hope to have this all down to a science !!!  but that day isn't here yet :-)


Enjoy, Janet

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Just to make sure I did not misread your instructions - For the electric oven, you baked at a higher heat(from 140C - 210C ) for a total of 45 mins but for the gas oven, you suggested baking at a lower heat 100 - 150C) for only 20 mins. I still need to increase to 200C for a further 20 -25 mins. after the oven has reached 150C at the end of the initial 20 mins for the loaf to be completely cooked right?

teketeke's picture
teketeke


 I still need to increase to 200C for a further 20 -25 mins. after the oven has reached 150C at the end of the initial 20 mins for the loaf to be completely cooked right?



That is correct, Judy. 


I never had a gas oven in my life.  Although I saw this cold start method for gas oven in the book.  I though that it would be helpful for somebody who has gas oven.  I think that the one who use gas oven better watch the bread how long do you need to cook completely after increasing the temperature 150℃.


Best wishes,


Akiko  

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Akiko,


You've certainly got a good rise from that loaf in a cold oven.


That has given me something to think about - thank you!


I have a gas oven so thanks for including  both gas and electric.


With best wishes, Daisy_A

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Your welcome, Daisy :)  I know that you have a gas oven so that it might be good to you too when I saw the gas oven version of the cold start in the book.   As you said, The dough in a tin loaf pan remarkably rises in a cold oven. The crumb is really moist and nicely soft.


With best wishes, too!


Akiko