The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

I wonder why do we have to add yeast in Sourdough Rye Bread?

MadAboutB8's picture
MadAboutB8

I wonder why do we have to add yeast in Sourdough Rye Bread?

I'm starting to move to the Sourdough Rye Breads section on Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread cookbook. After flipping through the recipes, I noticed that Hamelman included commercial yeast in (almost) every single SD rye recipe. The recipes also have short fermentation time, only an hour and doesn't mention anything or offer option of retarding the doughs.


I wonder if yeast is necessary in making rye sourdough? Is rye sourdough suitable for retardation? I searched TFL about this topic and looked briefly on what had been posted. Nothing seems to answer my curiosity.


Sue


http://youcandoitathome.blogspot.com

Sam Fromartz's picture
Sam Fromartz

You don't need yeast to make rye, but it will give you more insurance to get some loft in the bread. You might want to increase the percentage of starter in the final dough however. The easiest way: experiment.


You don't want to retard rye. Rye has a lot of amalyse enzymes which will attack the starch and cause a gummy unpleasant crumb (Hamelman explains this, I think at the front of the book, not in the rye chapter). If you retard the loaf, the enzymes will have more time to work. I know what of I speak. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I don't. I opt for the longer fermenting times and keep a sharp eye on my dough as they are less predictable.  It may be useful when one isn't familiar with the way rye doughs act, but I think as you get to know rye, you drop the use of adding yeast.  The sourdough does fine all by itself.  

MadAboutB8's picture
MadAboutB8

Thank you, Sam & Mini.


I usually retard the dough and bake in the morning as it suits my schedule better. Experiment will help answer these questions like you suggest.


I'll start with Light Rye bread, without yeast added, increase starter a little (Hamelman only called for 5 g of mature starter in the built, which is only 20% of the usual amount in non-rye bread), increase the fermentation time, and retard the dough overnight.


I have little experience working with Rye bread, but Light Rye Bread only contains 15% of rye flour in the recipe. So, this could be manageable.


Given that it's a no-no to overferement the rye bread, what I might do is making sure that the dough is only, say, 80% fermented (or even 70%) before putting them in retardation. Does this sound about right?


Thanks again.


Sue


http://youcandoitathome.blogspot.com

Sam Fromartz's picture
Sam Fromartz

Hamelman's right about using a very small amount of seed in the starter. I use about 2 tsp for about 100 grams flour, 100 grams water. Then let the starter rise for 16 to 20 hours at around 75F.


Your methods should be fine with a 15% light rye. It gets tricker when you use whole rye and go above 40%.


Here's pictures of a loaf with 90% rye, 10% wheat. There was no first rise, just a 5 minute rest after mixing and into the loaf pan. It domed nicely, which signaled it was ready to bake. The heavily floured surface also cracks. 


See the pictures here:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/42812123@N03/sets/72157626173717692/

MadAboutB8's picture
MadAboutB8

Those look great, Sam. The crack atually looks quite nice. Thanks for sharing this.


Sue


http://youcandoitathome.blogspot.com

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Sue,


I agree with the advice from both Sam and Mini.


Rye is eminently fermentable, and a vigorous sour culture renders addition of yeast non essential.   Hamelman's inclusion is, I suggest as Mini indicates, an insurance policy.   Familiarity renders it unecessary.


Whatever your normal schedules, I would avoid retarding if at all possible.   Rye becomes very unstable in the latter stages of fermentation.   The pentosans which knit the starches together are exceptionally weak by this time.   There is no going back; once rye is over-proofed the end-resulting product is pretty much doomed.


Ferment warm, don't look for long fermentation in the final stages.   A good sour will produce more than enough flavour, believe me!


All good wishes


Andy

MadAboutB8's picture
MadAboutB8

Thank you Andy.


Though, I only read your comment after I prepared my SD starter, for the mixing this evening. The starter won't ripe until well past 8pm. I'm not sure it would fit the schedule for baking tonight.


I'm just hoping with 15% rye in the dough (with fingers crossed and everything crossed:)) that it will turn out alright with retardation. Will have to keep a close eye it. Otherwise, it would be something I can experiment and compare for next bake without retarding.


Thanks again for an insightful advice.


Sue


http://youcandoitathome.blogspot.com

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

When the rye starts to make up 50% of the dough flour or more, retarding can become a problem (and then, pretty much in the last proofing phase.)  What you really have is a wheat loaf with a little rye flavoring.  So the loaf has all the characteristics of a wheat bread.


Not to worry.  :)

MadAboutB8's picture
MadAboutB8

You are really a Rye Champion on TFL.


The retardation for light rye went alright. I really enjoy the rye flavour on the bread, and will keep working on this dough for the next few weeks with slight variations.


Here's a pic from this morning's bake.



Sue


http://youcandoitathome.blogspot.com

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Yep, I'm just an ol' rye gal, wild horses couldn't drag me away from it.  I'm not the only one who knows a bit about rye.  I think I might be a rye pusher though.


Mini o-rye

jcking's picture
jcking

I like the taste of caraway in my rye just not crazy about the seeds. Try this; soak the seeds, overnite, in the water you'll be using for the dough and strain them out before adding the water to the mix. Great advise from the others! Or do the same with anise.


Jim

Wyatt's picture
Wyatt

I usually mill caraway to do away with the seeds and get more flavor out of them. Personally I prefer Dill to Caraway and find it goes great with Rye.

Been baking 100% Rye breads lately, not as hard as I thought but experience with wet doughs helps since the dough is very sticky. Keep your hands and scraper wet unless you want it to stick to everything. The only problem I've had with Bavarian pumpernickel is that the bread sometimes rises too much even with no proofing at all. I'm told I need to use pullman pans.

Wyatt's picture
Wyatt

By the way I never use commercial yeast in any bread and haven't for about 30 years