The Fresh Loaf

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Lean(ish) sourdough loaf pan recipe/suggestion?

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sparklebritches's picture
sparklebritches

Lean(ish) sourdough loaf pan recipe/suggestion?

We adore the taste of sourdough and lean bread here.    I've been trying to bake a couple of different sourdough recipes in little loaf pans for sandwiches for my little ones.   My only really successful ones have a pinch of yeast added to help things along.


I'm new to bread baking and very new to sourdough.  My starter is about a month and three weeks old.   The bread has been delicious but doesn't have very much oven spring.  I don't know if my dough is too wet from adding a little olive oil, if my starter is too young, if my oven temperature is not set high enough to get good oven spring, if shaping is the issue--shaping wetter dough into a sandwich loaf is not easy for me....


I'm wondering if I'd have better success with following a recipe intended for sandwich bread/loaf pans.   Does anyone have such a recipe?  I favor recipes that are largely unbleached bread flour with a little whole wheat/spelt, etc thrown in.


Thanks!

clazar123's picture
clazar123

                                                                         If we know where you are starting from, it helps direct you on what to try next.


It may be that your starter is not active enough-how do you use it and how does it behave when you feed it? How often and what do you feed it?


It took my starter quite a long time before it rose bread quickly enough to fit my schedule. I have often used instant yeast with it at times to reduce the long processing times when my schedule was tight.


However, with consistent use it has become quite active and I can use it by itself  now, and get the benefit of the full flavor (not sour,I might add) in the loaf.


I've also been using a pre-ferment to boost flavor.Easy! and what a difference! I'll post my recipe if you want but it's more technique than recipe.


I've taken to making sandwich thins for my lunches. You can use any bread dough.They are the rounds to the left in this loaf pic-these are 4 ounce thins, if I'm remembering correctly, of a multigrain dough.Delicioius sandwich bread!


SANDWICH THINS:


Take about 3-4 ounces(weight) of bread dough and roll into a ball and flatten slightly. Let rest for 15 minutes (important) to allow the gluten to relax. Then flatten into a 3-4 inch circle.Raise for 30 minutes till a little puffy. Keep dough covered so it doesn't dry out. Dock generously with a fork.Top with seeds, if desired. Bake for about 10-15 min at 375 or until lightly browned. Cool on rack.The tricky part is slicing them!

sparklebritches's picture
sparklebritches

I feed my starter twice a day.  I was feeding at 100% 1:1:1 but it started become really frothy and foamy in advance of the next feeding so I switched to about a 60% hydration feeding yesterday.  Here is the starter about 10-hours later.




The recipe I attempted yesterday was PR's ABED Pain au Levain recipe with a little olive oil added in.  This is what happened.  *Cue sad clown trombone*  It did at least taste good, a little sour almost in a buttermilk type way.



And the little crumb shot.  I had tried to really keep rolling it up to get lots of dough in for a dramatic oven spring.  HA.  These loaves were 560 grams each baked in 8.5x4.5 pans.



 


 

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

Hello sparklebritches,


If you hadn't said that your starter was at 60% hydration, I'd have guessed it was closer to 80% based on its appearance.  Maybe more.


Would you confirm the measurements of the flour and water in the starter, please?  (That's why I hope you will humor me.  Permission to bonk me with a balloon animal is hereby granted, should you wish to.)  It just looks really wet for that hydration level.


The bread itself looks as if one or both ferments went on too long.  The pale color of the crust suggests that maybe most of the sugars in the flour were consumed by the yeasts before the bread made it to the oven.


The starter certainly looks active enough to produce a good loaf of bread, so I'm also a bit puzzled about why things turned out the way they did.


Paul

sparklebritches's picture
sparklebritches

hee, I didn't know if anyone would notice that.  I remembered much after the fact that I indeed added more water to the starter to ease in stirring.  It was right before bed and my patience was limited.


I've got another batch baking with *slightly* better rise.  I fermented the sponge overnight in the fridge this time, added a wee bit of yogurt (hoping for color) and only proofed for a couple of hours out of the fridge this morning.


Pale crust abides.....even turned the heat up for a bit this time.


I just learned baker's math this morning, I hope that helps with some of the hydration issue.  I'm glad to hear that my starter is looking nice and active!


Editing to add: Underproofed, I think.  Blowouts on the bottoms.  DOH!

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

You mention blowouts at the bottoms of the loaves (I presume that these were baked as hearth breads, rather than panned breads).  That would certainly indicate underproofing.


What did the sponge look like after taking it out of the refrigerator?  Was it as full of bubbles as the starter in the picture you provided earlier?  If I understand correctly, you took the sponge out of the refrigerator, mixed and kneaded the final dough, allowed it to bulk ferment (at room temperature?  in the refrigerator?), then shaped the loaves and put them in the regfrigerator for the final proof.  Have I got that right?  What was the proofing time and temperature for the bulk ferment?  How much did it expand?  What was the proofing time and temperature for the shaped loaves while they were in the refrigerator?


Where I'm going with all of those questions is to gain an understanding of your process.  One of the things that seems to be happening (understand that I'm filling in the holes in my information with assumptions) is that you have a refrigerated sponge, followed by a bulk ferment of the finished dough at an unspecified temperature, followed by a refrigerated final ferment of the shaped loaves.  Most sourdoughs ferment v-e-r-y slowly at most home refrigerator temperatures.  Even an overnight ferment in the refrigerator may not provide the yeasts enough time to multiply and adequately inflate the dough.  By the time you get to the oven, the loaves may still be significantly under-proofed. 


At a guess, the sponge should be allowed to develop at cool, not cold temperatures, overnight and the bulk ferment should be allowed to develop at room temperature.  The shaped loaves could go back in the refrigerator as you have been doing.  But, check to see whether the final fermentation has inflated the loaves to nearly double their original volume before baking.  What do you do to determine whether the dough is fully proofed or not?


What was the oven temperature that you selected for this most recent bake?  Something in the 400-450F range?  Lower?  And have you used an oven thermometer to check that your oven's real temperature is the same one that you chose?  Some ovens run significantly lower than the controls would indicate.


I hope some of this proves to be useful to you.


Paul

sparklebritches's picture
sparklebritches

Yes, useful, thanks!


 


With regards to the pan loaf mission, I've made it with 14-16 hr overnight ferment in a 70-75 degree kitchen followed by shaping and a long proof (6-hours?) in a 70-75 degree kitchen AND I've made it with a 14-16 hour overnght ferment in a 38-ish degree fridge, followed by shaping and a 2-3 hour proof in a 75-80 degree kitchen.


Both results pretty much look like the sad loaves above, with the latter (fridge ferment) loaf having the bottom blow outs and the latter also being unedibly dense.  They were also pan loaves.


The fridge ferment loaves were also cooked at a higher temperature while the loaves above were baked at 350.   My oven is accurate, been checking the oven thermometer daily for a couple of months now.


Today's attempt is autolysing right now.  The sponge has been sitting at about 9-hours in a 70-75 degree kitchen.  It did not rise much (none of them did) but it was really frothy on top.   I'm trying it at 60% hydration because I am just no good at shaping 70%+  sandwich loaves. :)

sparklebritches's picture
sparklebritches

As it turns out, I didn't really need a "recipe" for this.  (but thank you to all who offered!)  I've had the best luck putting together a little 60% ish hydration dough started with a sponge and then a long proofing.  I think the firmer dough really helped me.


It's super sandwich bread for the kids! Now if I can just stay out of it.

totels's picture
totels

For my Birthday my girlfriend sent me on an Advanced Baking course at Cinnamon Square Bakery(http://www.cinnamonsquare.com/) and one of the recipes we were taught was a basic sourdough. I have since remade it five times, 3 of which have been in a loaf tin, it works quite wonderfully.


Wheat Sourdough Bread:



    Ingredients
  • 485g Bread Flour (100%)

  • 195g Wheat Sour Culture (40%)

  • 10g Salt (2%)

  • 260g Water(tepid) (53%)


    Process
  1. Mix all ingredients together until a smooth dough.

  2. Knead 10-15min.

  3. Leave covered for 2 hours - knock back after 1st hour.

  4. Round and leave for 15 minutes.

  5. Re-mould and place in rye baskets - sprinkled generously with cones/flour mix or into small greased bread tins.

  6. Cover and prove at ambient temperature for 4-6 hours.

  7. Tum out of rye baskets and score, or score top of bread inside tins. Bake at 220°C for 20-25 minutes.


To create the What Sourdough Culture you can take your usual starter and start a second starter that you feed with a wholemeal/wheat flour for a few days before you plan on using it.

sparklebritches's picture
sparklebritches

Thank you!  I will definitely try that.   :)


I'm not completely heart set on loaf pans.  I tried a bit back to make hybrid batards, boules for sandwich shapes but I couldn't really get the size just right.


Do oval brotforms typically make reasonably sandwich shaped type loafs?  My other attempts more or less yielded petitie little shapes.


 

Ford's picture
Ford

Here are two recipes I use for sandwiches and for morning toast.


Ford


WHITE SOURDOUGH BREAD
[19 sl./lf., 1/2" sl., 47 g, 110 cal, 3.3 g prot, 2.0 g fat, 19.3 g carb.]
 
2 3/4 cups (25 oz.) refreshed sourdough starter (100% hydration), at 70 to 80°F
3 3/4 cups (31.9 oz.) tepid scalded milk
10 1/4 to 10 3/4  cups (43.6 to 45.7 oz.) bread flour*
1 1/2 Tbs. (1 oz.) salt
1/4 cup (2 oz.) butter (or corn oil)
butter or solid shortening for greasing pans
1/4 cup (2 oz.) melted butter (or corn oil) to brush dough
water in a sprayer
 
Note: for part of the bread flour, you may use 1/2 cup (2.1 oz.) whole-wheat flour, and/or 1/2 cup (1.7 oz.) oat meal (rolled oats), pulverized to a flour, to modify the flavor and texture of the bread. Decrease flour appropriately, say by 1/2 cup (2.1 oz).
~77% hydration.  3 loaves @ ~34 oz unbaked, ~32 oz baked.

For the poolish, combine the refreshed, room temperature starter with the milk, half the bread flour and, if used, oat flour and/or whole-wheat flour.  Let this sit for about one hour for the flour to absorb the water and to ferment.  Long fermentation time is not required for sourdough.  Over fermentation can mean the loss of structure by the acid attacking the gluten.



For the dough, mix in the quarter cup of melted butter, salt, and as much of the remaining flour as can be mixed with a spoon..  Turn out on to a floured surface and knead in as much flour as it takes to make a soft, non-sticky dough.  The stretch and fold method of kneading will work.  Place the dough in an oiled bowl, cover, and allow it to double in volume.  With stretch and fold the dough has already doubled by the last rest.



Brush melted butter around the inside of three 5”x 8” loaf pans.  Again, turn out the dough on to the floured surface and divide into three equal parts.  Shape the dough into loaves and place them into the loaf pans.  Brush each loaf with melted butter.  Cover with plastic wrap and let them rise until the dough comes well above the top of the pans, about 2 hours.



Preheat the oven to 450°F.  Place a broiler pan of boiling water on the shelf below the baking shelf.  If desired, slash each loaf with a greased razor blade or a very sharp knife, making a quarter inch deep cut.  Spray the loaves with a mist of water and place them on the middle shelf of the oven.  Spray the loaves two more times in the oven at two-minute intervals.  After fifteen minutes, set the oven temperature to 350°F and bake for an additional 45 minutes or until the interior temperature of the loaf reaches 190-195°F.
Turn the loaves on to a cake rack and brush all sides with melted butter.  Cover with a damp paper towel and with plastic wrap.  Allow the loaves to cool before cutting or wrapping.  The loaves may then be frozen, if desired.



WHOLE-WHEAT SOURDOUGH BREAD

 2 3/4 cups (25 oz.) refreshed whole wheat sourdough starter (100% hydr.), at 70 to 80°F
3 3/4 cups (16 oz.) whole-wheat flour, King Arthur brand, finely milled*
4 cups (34.0 oz.) 80°F scalded milk
(1 cup [3.3 oz.] oat meal, pulverized to a flour, optional, decrease flour by 3/4 cup [3.1 oz])
1/3 cup (3.8 oz.) honey, or brown sugar, or corn syrup
~6 2/3 cups (28.5 oz.) unbleached bread flour (King Arthur brand preferred)
1/4 cup (2 oz.) melted butter (or corn oil)
1 1/2 Tbs. (1 oz.) salt
1/4 cup (2 oz.) melted butter (or corn oil) for brushing dough and the baked bread
 
~78% hydration.  ~50% whole wheat flour.  3 loaves: ~35.8 oz. each unbaked, ~33 oz. baked.
*If you use stone ground, coarsely milled, whole-wheat flour (Arrowhead Mills), then use 3 1/4 cups, still 16 oz.

For the soaker, combine the, milk, honey, whole-wheat flour, and optional oat flour in a large bowl.  Cover and let sit about one hour to soften the bran, allow the flour grains to absorb water.



For the dough, mix the soaker, the refreshed, room temperature starter, the salt, and a quarter cup of melted butter.  Blend in as much bread flour as can be mixed with a spoon.  Turn out on to a floured surface, knead well, working in only as much of the flour as to give a non-tacky dough.  The dough will not be as elastic as the white bread dough.  Place in an oiled bowl, cover, and allow to ferment for thirty to sixty minutes, then gently degas the dough by folding it on itself.



Brush melted butter around the inside of three 5”x 8” loaf pans.  Again, place the dough on the floured surface and divide into three equal parts.  Shape the dough into loaves and place them into the loaf pans.  Brush each loaf with melted butter.  Cover with plastic wrap and let them rise until the dough comes well above the top of the pans, about 2 to 3 hours.  Do not keep the dough at room temperature for long periods as the acid in the sourdough may break down the gluten strands.



Preheat the oven to 450°F.  Place a broiler pan of boiling water on the shelf below the baking shelf.  If desired, slash each loaf with a greased razor blade or a very sharp knife, making a quarter inch deep cut.  Spray the loaves with a mist of water and place them on the middle shelf of the oven.  Spray the loaves two more times in the oven at two-minute intervals.  After fifteen minutes, set the oven temperature to 350°F and remove the pan of water.  Bake for an additional 45 minutes or until the interior temperature of the loaf reaches 195 to 200°F.



Turn the loaves on to a cake rack and brush all sides with melted butter.  Cover with a damp paper towel.  Cover the damp towel with plastic wrap.  Allow the loaves to cool before cutting or wrapping.  The loaves may then be frozen, if desired.



I have found that as I have gained experience in handling the dough I have been able to work with slacker doughs, i. e. doughs of higher hydration.  The slacker doughs will produce a lighter loaf.


mysty's picture
mysty

I was watching u-tube and it said six to 12 hours.  I was like well duh no wonder my bread came out the way it did.  And yes I live at high altitude.  I'm also trying a plain flour and water starter in a jar.  Man does it look wierd and stink.  The other one that people turn their nose up at was started with one package of yeast and 2 cups of flour 2 cups of milk and I don't know how much sugar but it was a lot.  I quit feeding it like that but it is still getting water. flour and sugar in equal parts.

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

Depends on many things. Guess you may be asking about the final rise, which is after the dough is shaped. This would probably depend somewhat on the recipe(how much ripe starter was used, the vitality of the starter, etc.), and mainly, the temperature the dough is raised in. 


One of my favorite recipes(SylviaF's Levain Buns, my methods though) takes a final rise of only about 1 to 1.5 hours at 85° F or so.


But in general(lots of qualifications, naturally), a final rise of 1 to 2 hours, at typical warm proofing temperatures. Again though, lots of variables. Ultimately, the dough is ready "when it's ready".


The same recipe mentioned above; last time I made it, the final proofing was done for about 6 hours at 60° F, then about another 1.5 hours at 85°, before baking.

mysty's picture
mysty

mrfrost  Thanks that is exactly the temperature my house has been hovering around 60 degrees.  Which would mean the six hour final proofing.  :) Boy I'm figuring this out with the help of you the internet u-tube, books.  Would have been much easier with an experienced baker by my side but I'm going to really OWN this when it starts working.

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

At the 60° it could have "proofed" considerably longer. That 60° would probably be considered an almost "retarding". Remember, it still needed another hour and a half at 85° to get to full proof.


You can always(usually) use your oven with the "light on only" for the final proofing. That usually gives you about 80 to 90° after the lights been on an hour or so.


Then just take the proofing bread out of the oven when ready to preheat and bake.


That's probably your best option if you can't find a more appropriate "warm place" somewhere in your house.


Good luck.