The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

High Percentage of Fats in Bread

azelia's picture
azelia

High Percentage of Fats in Bread

hi Everyone


this is the first time posting on here and i'm hoping that some expericence bakers will be able give an idea on this question of mine, I've asked on another forum but got no answers.


The link below is for a Dan Lepard's recipe of some Soft Baps (Bread Rolls) which contain some butter, 75g butter to 815g of flour.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/oct/06/recipes.foodanddrink


The method of these baps of making up the sponge leaving it for a couple of hours and then adding the liquid fat to it has got me wondering about doing the recipe this way around?

Is it because of the amount of fat in the recipe and that will inhibit gluten development? so you start the gluten to develop before adding the fat?


I read in the How Baking Works book that fat can stop gluten development by stopping the wheat absorbing the water therefore halting the process...which is what makes me wonder that this recipe is constructed this way to compensate for that?


In the past when I've asked why make a Sponge for a bread recipe I've been told is to add flavour to the bread...but wondered if it's also to do with the gluten development?


would that make sense...or am I going down the wrong pathway?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven


Is it because of the amount of fat in the recipe and that will inhibit gluten development? so you start the gluten to develop before adding the fat?



Yes. 


I have a recipe I haven't done in years and can no longer remember the mixing method, it asks for 80 to 100g butter to 600g flour and I was wondering the same more or less.  How to put it together without all that butter messing up the gluten.  The ingredients are only listed, no instructions but the milk is listed with the flour and then the butter.  There is old fashioned mixing/kneading involved (pile up the flour on the kneading surface, make a dent & pour the ingredients into the middle except salt & butter chunks sprinkled on the outside edge) and that means when starting from the middle, liquids get mixed in first to form a soft dough and the salt and butter get added incorporating the butter later in the mixing and using some flour to help.  (One can easily see that adding a autolyse step might be tricky.)


So what I plan to do is just that.  Reserving a little flour, mix up the flour, yeast and scalded milk and let it sit to give the gluten a head start, even 20 minutes is enough but a little longer is also helpful.  My guess is that a little longer lets gas help gluten strands stretch and thin before adding salt to tighten the gluten bonds.   Next step working in the unsalted butter with the rest of the flour until smooth. 



In the past when I've asked why make a Sponge for a bread recipe I've been told is to add flavour to the bread...but wondered if it's also to do with the gluten development?



The answer lies in the amount of sponge and how long it sits.  If it is just a little one, it may be just to dissolve the yeast (purchased yeast didn't always dissolve so easily) to see the yeast activity.  If the sponge is a large one, gluten development would play a role.  If the sponge sat for a period of time to ferment, then time would act on the flavor of the bread.   If it sat too long, then there may be a detrimental effect on the gluten as it's proteins are broken down by enzymes and if then mixed into a dough, this would carry on to break down the gluten strands in the finished dough as well at a very rapid rate.   


Mini

davidg618's picture
davidg618

Fats are called shortening because they literally shorten gluten strands. That's often a good thing, leading to soft crumb, which I presume from your recipe's name, Soft Baps, is desired. The milk also contributes to their soft crumb.


75g of shortening to 815g of flour is 9% (baker's percentage), not a particularly large amount. Reinhart would label this dough "enriched"; i.e. containing less than 20% fat, not "rich" wherein special techniques are needed to incorporate fats into the dough while minimizing their unwanted effects. Brioche is a good example: 40 to 70% fat.


I won't presume to know the author's motive, however, letting a sponge develop without any possible impeding ingredients--in this case fat and salt--makes good sense.


Adding the liquid shortening to the liqud sponge is done probably because its the easiest, and likely best, way to insure even distribution of the fat into the final dough. It's not a special procedure for adding fat.


Thanks for the post. I've been looking for a good, pre-baguette craze, bun recipe; I'm going to give these a try.


David G

azelia's picture
azelia

Thank you very much for your answers Mini & David.


 


Yes you're right David it isn't a very high fat content...after I had added up the flour amount to post on here and went away the same thing did cross my mind.


the normal bread I make is usually about 2% of fat.


Following on from the Sponge adding flavour Mini how long is the minimum to give it flavour?  I realise every bread may differ but I ask because when I first started to follow a pita bread recipe it required a sponge time of 2hrs which always made wonder if that's really long enough to develop flavour.  This  recipe here also states to let the sponge for 2.5-3hrs, not far off the pita bread recipe.


This makes me wonder if a 2 hr sponge really adds that much flavour? Is this quite common time?


In both these cases it's for yeast dough, I also make sourdough and realise the speed of sourdoughs is longer.


 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to an AP wheat flour.  Now if the yeast is a teeny tiny amount and allowed to preferment longer say 8 to 16 hrs, then we might be talking flavor. (We might as well be talking poolish.)  I seemed to pull out more flavor with just mixing up the flour and water and letting it sit 12 hrs before adding the yeast.  Interesting...  I managed to get the wet time I wanted and the rise and crumb like the recipe.  


I would say at least 8 hours with or without an appropriate small amount of yeast. 


Two to three hours is probably the maximum amount that the average person (TFLers excluded) would invest in the recipe without loosing patience or interest in making the recipe.  Someone is out there selling recipes and books.  If a person reads 12 hours while searching for a recipe to try out, would they think of added flavor or jump over the recipe for another shorter "easier" one?  It is interesting how many would interpret 12 hours rest means 12 hours of work and more complicated when it is not.  Given a choice of 8 to 16 hrs. in directions and oh goodness!  A choice must be made! (more work!)  And the dough isn't even made yet!  Next recipe please...    Lol  

proth5's picture
proth5

2 hours or so is a very common time for sponges in many "older" (ok, older than me - and that's pretty old...) recipes.  It is done to add flavor and somewhat to aid in gluten delevlopment.  A sponge would be more applicable to a dough with fats and sugar and it does not have to perform the heavy lifting that a pre ferment performs in a lean bread - but it does serve a purpose. In fact, that is part of the definition of a "sponge" - relatively short fermentation time used to flavor enriched doughs.


I did some experimenting with sponges a "few" years back (pre- TFL) and even two hours adds its bit of flavor - again remembering that many of these recipes are loading up with yeast and have very short bulk fermentation times.


These recipes are meant to produce product quickly.  Yes, you might get more flavor with long, cool bulk fermentation or a long autolyse, but they produce a very good product on a relatively tight schedule  - and sometimes that is appropriate.


Not being disagreeable - I've dug back into some of these old style recipes as of late and am bringing up repressed memories of "how we used to do it."


Happy Baking!

davidg618's picture
davidg618

Azelia,


I made them.


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21868/dan-lepard039s-soft-baps


In my earlier post, I'd not given consideration to the fact that 67% of the flour is in the sponge. I let the sponge work for two hours at 76°F. When I mixed in the remaing liquids and fat, it was evident that the sponge's gluten had developed quite well, The dough, at 70% hydration, was sticky and slack but wonderfully manageable with just a dusting of flour on the board.


We are having them for dinner--turkey burgers with pesto--I'll post a crumb shot, and a flavor report in my blog post later.


Mini and Pat are spot on with their comments re gluten development in a sponge left to rest, even for only a brief time, relative to a typical poolish or biga.


David G

azelia's picture
azelia

thank so much Mini, David and Pat for coming back and answering the sponge time question...I haven't had time to come back and properly respond but have enjoyed reading your opinions, it's given me  something to think about.


I've only really started to adventure into breadmaking since aquiring a sourdough starter last year and then finaling making my own starter...until then I hadn't even thought about what gluten actually was or how the structure of bread changes with slight differences in treatment.  I've never made a poolish or biga but eventually I'll get around to doing it.


David, I'm pleased you like the rolls, I've been adapting them for my daughter and making them dairy-free and maize-free also successfully...it's quite difficult to find soft crumb bread that's dairy-free, and I guess my next step is venturing into the water-roux bread.


Dan Lepard is an amazing baker, very well respected and sought after, I can recommend his Handmade Loaf book next time you're thinking about buying a bread book.


 

AnnaMagnani's picture
AnnaMagnani

The baps look just right.  Does anyone have a suggestion about what to use for cornflour?  I don't want to buy some just for this.

davidg618's picture
davidg618

Hi, Anna

Cornflour is an Englishman's name for cornstarch. If it isn't a staple in your pantry, it should be:-)

David G

baybakin's picture
baybakin

I think this varies per location, so be careful what you buy.

Around here corn flour is milled corn, and corn starch goes through a chemical process to isolate it, containing no flavor of the corn afterwards (used only for starch content)

AnnaMagnani's picture
AnnaMagnani

Thank you, David and baybakin.  Since the Guardian is an English paper, I'm going to go with the cornstarch.  We'll see.

Sharon

davidg618's picture
davidg618

I've made the recipe, a half-dozen times with no problems. Take a look at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21868/dan-lepard039s-soft-baps

David G