The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Odds & Ends

wally's picture
wally

Odds & Ends

                                


This week I found time to come up for air and play with some of my Christmas toys, so I tried a little experimentation where I haven't been before, and also revisited familiar places where my skills can always improve.  The result is an interesting, but somewhat perplexing, apple-walnut sourdough, and more practice with croissants and my favorite poolish baguettes.


I've wanted to try an apple-walnut bread for some time, but frankly, I'm too lazy to either dry apples or buy dried apples.  So, my thought was this: why not puree an apple, make allowances for its hydration, and see what would result.  I used Hamelman's Vermont sourdough as my 'base' recipe.  To this I added a pureed Macintosh apple.  Now, according to my Google explorations, apples are about 85% water. Armed with this information, I adjusted the flour and water weights and mixed the dough, having built my levain over a 12 hour period.  The first thing I found is that even pureed, the apple has not released all of its water during the mix, so I ended up adding a small additional amount of water to reach a dough that felt right (Hamelman's Vermont sourdough is at 65% hydration, so I figure I upped it to about 68% - no big deal).


I mixed all ingredients except salt, did a 40 minute autolyse, and then added the salt and mixed for 3 minutes on speed 3 of my Hamilton Beach.  After, I added chopped walnuts and mixed on speed 1 for an additional minute.  Bulk fermentation was for 2 1/2 hours with two folds at 50 minute intervals.


The initial thing I noticed about this dough was that it was very slow in rising during the bulk fermentation.  After dividing and shaping, I left it for final proof downstairs where the temperature is a chilly 60 degrees F.  After 5 hours I was not satisfied with its progress and brought it upstairs to a more hospitable 68 degrees where it proofed for an additional 2 hours before baking.


Now, if this were simply Hamelman's Vermont sourdough both the fermentation and final proof would have been accomplished much sooner (unless I opted to retard overnight).  But with the addition of the apple and walnuts, the levain worked much, much more slowly.


The bake was fine - there was noticeable though not spectacular oven spring.  The profile, as you can see, is not bad, but not what I am used to when baking this recipe without additions.


    


Good things: instead of pieces of apple in the finished product, there are flecks of the peel and a nice, but not overwhelming flavor of apple, with some additional sweetness it brings.  The walnuts are a perfect complement.  The bread is surprisingly moist and has stayed fresh much longer than a straight sourdough.


I do wonder if there is something in the pureed apple that inhibits the levain (cue for anyone to offer opinions, or better yet, definitive answers).


Following the sourdough experiment I decided that, it being wintry and cold - outside and in my kitchen - it was a good time to revisit croissants.  Lately I've spent some time with our pastry bakers at work rolling out croissants, so I've developed some confidence in my shaping and overall in the feel, texture and thickness of the dough.  The results, shown below, were accomplished using a recipe adapted from Dan DiMuzio's excellent textbook, Bread Baking.  I laminated the dough using two single-folds and one double (book) fold.  I'm pretty pleased with the outcome and the crumb.  As with everything in baking, I'm finding that the 'secret' is pretty simple: practice, practice, practice.


    


Finally, I wanted to bake something for my friends at my local pub (which also supplies me with Sir Galahad flour in 50# bags), so I did a bake of poolish baguettes taken from Hamelman's recipe.  I've tweaked his to up the 68% hydration slightly via the poolish, but when I did the poolish mix last night, his recipe was closer to me than my spreadsheet, so this is straight from Bread.  I like it particularly because it demonstrates the openness of crumb that's attainable with a hydration that is not overly high.


I'm including a picture below of the ripened poolish for the benefit of anyone who is not familiar with what this should look like.  What I'd like to call attention to are the small rivulets of bubbles that have formed, displacing for the most part larger bubbles that dominate under-ripened poolishes. (And actually, this could have ripened for probably another 20 minutes or so, but my schedule pronounced it 'done' - and in any event I'd prefer a slightly under-ripened poolish to an over-ripened one).



Here are the 10 oz 17" baguettes (mini baguettes really) that emerged from my new FibraMent baking stone after 23 minutes at a temp of about 450 degrees F.


    


Aside from the few slices shown here, the rest was quickly devoured by patrons and kitchen staff at the Old Brogue Irish Pub.


    


Larry


 


 

Comments

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I haven't a clue regarding the slow rise of the SD. You didn't just have a cool kitchen, I suppose.


I've made the apple-walnut SD with dried apples. I was disappointed that it didn't have more apple flavor. I suspect that the chemicals that give apples their distinctive flavor are either oxidized or evaporate. I wonder if replacing some of the water with apple cider concentrate might work.


David

wally's picture
wally

That would be worth pursuing - Hamelman uses it in his recipe.  What puzzles me most about the slow rise is that the levain was quite active; still, over the 2 1/2 hr bulk fermentation I didn't get the usual signs of good yeast activity (bubbles, lightness of the dough after the second fold, etc).  I wonder if the sugars in the apple somehow inhibit the yeast?


Larry

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

All nice bakes, Larry.  The croissants look especially delectable.  Nothing better than airy buttery crispy croissants.  


Nice poolish picture, too.


Glenn

wally's picture
wally

Thanks Glenn!

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Same here, Larry! No clue to the effect of Apple puree,though. I love your loaves!


i believe, however, that you used a higher protein flour for your Croissans than is recommended. They are beauties, don't get me wrong, but an all purpose flour of 10.5% protein would have given you more crisp, light croissans.


The baguettes are marvelous, Larry!

wally's picture
wally

Thanks Mebake.  Actually I used Sir Galahad with a protein content of 11.7%.  At work we actually use high gluten flour for our croissants.  10.5% seems too low to me - more like the high end of cake flour and I wonder if it is capable of developing a good gluten network.


Larry

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hello Larry,
Your croissants are lovely - the shaping is very consistent and the crumb perfect!
Your apple-walnut bread also looks really good. Regarding David's suggestion to use apple cider, I have an
Apple Bread recipe (starting with 77.6% pate fermentee) that in addition to dried apple, uses in the final dough:
50% apple cider
16.7% applesauce (unsweetened) (or apple butter for a stronger apple flavor)
19.3% sour cream
(but no water in the final dough)
I haven't tried this Apple Bread yet myself - it's from Artisan Breads at Home by Eric Kastel - but other formulas I've tried from that book have been very flavorful.
Thanks too for your pointer about poolish ripeness, and the baguettes have really nice scoring and color.
A nice week's work! from breadsong


 


 

wally's picture
wally

I'm intrigued by the idea of applesauce!  It would certainly incorporate more easily that apple puree.  I may try that next time around.


Larry

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

I don't have any clue whether the pectin from the apples would affect fermentation (though the apples will likely add acid pH 3.0-3.5 range (?)), but it would certainly affect the gelification of the starches. That may be the cause of your bread retaining its moisture level for a longer period.


cheers,


gary

wally's picture
wally

That's a thought that hadn't occurred to me gary, but if so, it would certainly explain its greater longevity (over and above the effects of levain).  Thanks!


Larry

AnnaInMD's picture
AnnaInMD

So beautiful ! 


I love the suggested use of apple butter and apple cider with a bit of nutmeg and cinnamon, walnuts and some plump raisins, this would make a great "harvest bread".


I, too, have a terrible time lately trying to bake with starter alone. We keep the house temperature at 67, so yeast it is until warmer weather.


Best,


anna


 


 

wally's picture
wally

That sounds really good, anna!  Perhaps you might work up a bake and share the results.  My kitchen stays at around 68 F during the winter, but using home-made proofers I can reliably crank things up for the dough so that its rising in an environment closer to 74 -75 degrees.


Larry

AnnaInMD's picture
AnnaInMD

they look like little sandcrabs to me :)


 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Larry,


Lovely work as ever.   I'm not really able to throw much light on your questions about the Apple Bread.   I think Hamelman is trying to do something really quite special with the drying process through slow baking.   That would really bring out the flavour.   Additionally, and I'm going by the fact he gives the name a "regional" theme, I think he is encouraging the use of traditional varieties.   He also recommends unpasteurised and unfiltered cider.   All of these things together seem to me to be his best recommendations for FLAVOUR.


Regarding your croissants, I say top work, and your time with the pastry dept. and your observation about practice are paying dividends.   The number of stands on your croissants is impressive, and the lift during baking quite superb.   Whilst I do not like using very strong flour for croissants, I'm afraid I don't agree with Khalid's comment about use of 10.5% AP flour.   I prefer a strong flour at c.12% and insist that will give better lift than the AP.   Individual preference will always dictate here, and I confess to liking a soft croissant to dip in my coffee, and not one which shatters all over the place leaving lots of flakes all over the breakfast table.


I do note a little tightness on the base, of an otherwise wonderful crumb.   Do you put that down to your oven, or, do you think a 4th turn and fold might have helped to sort this?


Baguettes: awesome, what else can be said?   Hydration levels and your openness of crumb are aspects I totally agree with.   One question: you have a very white crumb there.   Is that solely due to the properties of the KA flour, or have you employed relatively intensive mixing of the dough?


Great post, many thanks


Andy

wally's picture
wally

Yes, I think that drying the apples would definitely tend to concentrate their flavor, along with the addition of cider.  I wanted something more subtle and the puree certainly yields that.  I'm still puzzled by the slowness of CO2 development during the bulk fermentation, though.


The croissants may have benefited from a 4th turn.  I'm still learning and developing my skills at home lamination, though I was generally pleased with this bake and feel a lot more confortable working the dough and knowing when it needs resting and when I can push it further.


The baguette's toothpaste whiteness in the picture is, alas, a testament to my failings at photography (and/or the cameras).  The crumb actually had a nice yellow creamy color.  I've found that by mixing only about a minute and a half on speed 1 of my relatively inefficient Hamilton Beach mixer, and then going to speed 3 (not 2) for three minutes, I can get moderate gluten development in a shorter time, yet not worry about over oxidation.  But you wouldn't know it from the photo.


Best-


Larry

ananda's picture
ananda

Yes, I'd forgotten the third possibility of deception in the photograph.


Thanks for clarifying Larry


BW


Andy

teketeke's picture
teketeke

What wonderful loaves as always, Larry!!


I came here a while ago to write a comment to you, but I couldn't find any right words for your wonderful bread.   Especially, your croissants... I want to make it like yours someday...  I need a lot of practice.... 


P.S Now I am making your cheese bread that you posted around Christmas? last year. :)  As Daisy-A recommend it to me, It will be great! 


Happy baking,


Akiko

wally's picture
wally

I think you'll enjoy the cheese bread - please share your bake with us.


Best,


Larry

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Hello Larry, 'Everything' sounds so delicious and interesting, I just wish I could see your photos, instead of gray blanks, it's now also on the half of the front page photos displayed.


I love the thought of apples and walnuts in a sourdough and being able to taste the apples.


I loved the cheddar cheese bread you made and thought it would be so delicious with apples.. apple pie with cheddar cheese go so well together, so why not in bread.  I have never tried this recipe..it is very old and comes from a special edition of a 1985 magazine.  Yes, I still have this old magazine, Better Homes and Gardens..filled with wonderful recipes!  Anyway, the apples are incorporated by, shredding them into the dough, along with apple cider or apple juice, it also has some whole wheat flour...the bread looks lovely, it is braided and baked in a pan...pictured with a sliced apple.  


I think your bread sounds so delicious being sourdough, apples and walnuts, maybe even so cheddar.


I hope to be able to see all your photos soon...I can everyone else's :/


Sylvia

wally's picture
wally

Don't know what the problem is with the pictures, but I hope it was just temporary.


What a creative thought - incorporating apples into cheese bread!  I grew up with Better Homes and Gardens in our house, but at the time it held no interest to me.  Howevere, I am definitely going to try that, the two just pair together so well.  Thanks for the idea!  (I may instead of shredding the apples cook them down into applesauce).  Ummm...


Larry

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

I can see all you lovely baking on my sony pc.  The Irish Pub group, must all call your name when you walk in the door :) 


I think the problem is on the mac wireless, is because it went offline in the middle of downloading your photos, maybe!! 


I know if you want to replace the oil in say a cake batter to cut some of the fat out you can use applesauce in place of the oil...do it all the time...it's a common practice that works well..applesauce instead of oil..so I wonder how it would work in bread?


I might give the old BH&G recipe a try sometime..using my 'Boiled Cider' from KA, just to see how applie and cheesie it tastes.  I have plenty of apples and cheese..the recipe is under food for small families..makes a decent small sized loaf!


Sylvia


 

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

would make for a nice thick maybe not so wet an applesauce with maybe a little more intense flavor..at least it works well in my fried pies!  They are cooked down for the pie to a nice thickness.  Just a thought!


Sylvia

proth5's picture
proth5

- but you know that -right?


I feel your pain with the limits of photography...


I was talking to an instructor about croissants at one time and I was unhappy (as I am with everything I do) about the shape of the croissants that he had designated as "great shaping."  He informed me that a straight croissant indicates that it was made with butter - the familar crescent shpae indicates that it was made with margerine.  He seemed like a pretty reliable source (but I'm not naming names, today).  I think about that from time to time.


Again, nice stuff!


Pat

wally's picture
wally

Andy has encouraged me to get with the crescent program and as that's how we shape them at work I'm getting more confident.


Interesting what your instructor said in differentiating them.  In any event, I'm a butter man!  (I recall a story an old girlfriend told me about hearing Julia Child speak at an event along with her longtime friend and collaborator, Jacques Pepin.  And on the subject of butter she said, in that high pitched voice than only Julia had: "Oh those fat police, they've absolutely ruined food for all of us!"


Larry

proth5's picture
proth5

we will find that vegetables really are bad for us - and then how sorry will we be?


Of course, the studies already show that margerine was bad for us - or at least the ones that I read :>)


Pat

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Pat,


I've heard that story about the difference in shaping revealing use of butter or margarine too.   Can't say I heard it from such a reliable source, so had suspected it may be an "old wives tale"!   There must be more to it then.


Anyway, I prefer to shape them in a crescent.   I even go so far as to join up the feet.   For this I was criticised by a very well-known instructor over here in the UK who took such exception to them that he called them "heretical".   Guess he didn't like them too much!   Still, they were a breakfast treat for some friends of mine who were somewhat more appreciative... that is what we really should all be happy about as bakers


All good wishes


Andy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Andy,


Heretical? You were close to excommunication from croissant-shaping 'church' for joining up the crescent? That seems a bit harsh!


I'll go for crescents and butter, albeit a lean formula. As food historians have allegedly traced crescent shaped pastries back to the C13 in Europe and much further back in the Middle East, I think that crescent with butter must predate crescent with margarine, even if some more modern bakers produce them in that way...Beside which, that's my preference :-)


Best wishes, Daisy_A

proth5's picture
proth5

Well, if I don't end up somewhere else this fall, I'll check in Paris bakeries just to verify my source (who I really consider knows his stuff).


Mark  (mcs) could tell tales of me talking to the croissants to try and coax them into perfect shapes and for him I did shape them curved (because he was in charge).  I don't know about joining up the feet - that scares ma a bit.  I don't find it heretical, though.  If customers receive it well - that's what counts.


It's always interesting to me what we get worked up over.  A passionate bunch, we are.


Take care ands stay warm!


Pat

louie brown's picture
louie brown

are other bakers' dreams. Great stuff nicely presented. Croissants are still on the distant horizon for me.

wally's picture
wally

Thanks so much louie!  They were daunting at first, but as with everything in baking, the more you practice, the better the results and pretty soon your goals are raised.  I've taken to baking croissants in small batches at home - partly because I'm a family of one, and partly so that when meltdowns happen (and they do!) I don't feel like I'm tossing away a lot of expensive butter.


Larry

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Larry,


That looks like a great bake! I'm sure the fruits of your labours were also appreciated down the 'Old Brogue'. Must have been fun to use the new fibrament stone?


Both the baguettes and the croissants look deliciously golden and open-crumbed.


I find it so hard to capture crumb shots in different lights. Do you have 'white balance' on your camera? I've just started to use mine, but even with that, it's difficult.


Many thanks for showing the poolish shot. Just yesterday I passed over a leaven that looked like this for one with larger bubbles, that I thought was stronger. That was a really useful, timely illustration for me.


I have some thoughts on the apple bread front, from the land of 'baking with fruit yeasts'. If your leaven is strong normally then I think fruit sugar could be an inhibitor. It also seems that whichever way you made this bread  - with puree, dried apple, cider or cider concentrate, sugars would be introduced? However I guess the puree would be more widely distributed than dried apple?


Oddly, apple water yeast, as used by RonRay, Akiko and Karin, doesn't tend to make the bread taste significantly of apples. However it does tend to be a yeast charger in the presence of fruit sugars in dough. I use raisin water yeast but I made the same fruit enriched sourdough bread (panettone), twice with raisin water yeast and once without. The dough that lacked it took hours longer to rise, even though specialist Italian bakers can get a fast rise with 'sweet starter' alone.


Cold was a factor as version 2 was baked on the coldest UK night since the reign of Queen Victoria! However the other doughs were proofed in a cold kitchen also. I do think that the fact that fruit yeast are already strong in the presence of fruit sugars makes them sugar tolerant in dough also. Conversely, is it possible that some otherwise strong leavens are inhibited by fruit sugars?  I don't know if more of the usual leaven would help or whether unpasteurized cider would introduce more natural yeasts if not boiled off?


I would offer to try apple water yeast apple bread but am back to bumping up my skills with lean sourdough hearth breads at the moment! Mostly shaping, shaping, shaping…


I enjoyed viewing the bread feast and took lots to think about from this post. Thanks for sharing!


Best wishes, Daisy_A


 

wally's picture
wally

I am indeed enjoying the fibrament stone and my friends at the Brogue have developed certain expectations upon my arrival early Saturday afternoons.  Now if I can only convince the owner he needs to build a wfo out back!


Your remarks about apple water yeast are interesting, though they add to my puzzlement.  I'm not sure if fructose is an inhibitor of wild yeast or not - I guess that's the basic question though.


Larry

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Larry,


Oh yes, a wfo would be great...


Re the yeasts and fructose, it just makes me realise more and more what complex organisms yeasts are...


Was just shooting the breeze with this on Google and came across this research. To me this suggests that just as yeasts modify their pathways to deal with other phenomena, some can modify their pathways to deal with fruit yeasts. Alternatively, in some circumstances yeasts can become stressed in the presence of fruit yeast and become 'stuck'. (Am open to comment by microbiologists if I'm reading this wrongly!) I realise grape concentrate carries more fruit yeast than the average fruit-enriched sourdough. Still, osmotolerant yeast is sometimes useful in baking too...


To me, this explains the choice of specialist yeasts for wine brewing. It also suggests that the yeasts that win out in a jar of fruit water yeast are those that have developed pathways to deal with fruit yeast well (having often thrived on the fruit skin), and so are not 'phased' when they encounter more fructose in dough...Just my thoughts for now....Am still thinking this through. Seems like fructose can both stimulate and inhibit yeast?


Thought-provoking blog, either way! Thanks for this.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

 

Franko's picture
Franko

Odds and ends? Larry if this is what you call odds and ends I better rethink my definition of the term. I was looking at your post on my mobile while I was on a coffee break this morning, thinking "Larry's gone and done it again with another great bunch of baking". The boule, the croissants, and of course the baguettes, all beautifully crafted and baked Larry. Nice work!


The only thing that comes to mind regarding the slow ferment of the boule is perhaps the increased sugar content from the apple slowed things down. Macs can get pretty sweet around this time of year, and it may have taken the yeast a while longer to work through it than what you'd expect. I wonder if increasing the % of levain next time might speed things up, although I see in Hamelman's formula it's already at 39%, so you'd think that would be plenty. No doubt the cool conditions you mention were a contributing factor as well.


Here's something I found regarding sugars and fermentation particularly regarding fructose, that might offer a possible explanation.


"Level of sugar and salt:
It is well known that yeast fermentation is retarded in the presence of high concentrations of sugar and salt. This inhibitory effect is related to the high osmotic pressure gradient created outside of the yeast cells due to high concentrations of sugar and/or salt in dough. A measurable decline in fermentation rate is observed if the concentration of sugar exceeds 5%. This effect is more pronounced with sucrose, glucose, and fructose than with maltose." 


http://www.dakotayeast.com/help-fermentation.html


There are some other research findings available that seem to say fructose is metabolized by yeast at a slower rate or uptake than glucose...but it's written by a biochemist for other biochemists and gets into things that Andy or Ms Wink could better explain.


Great post Larry.


All the best,


Franko


 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi folks,


I just suggest that the slowing down, as explored by Franko, above, can be seen clearer with reference to this table of mine. 


Changes taking place during bulk fermentation

Relevant active enzyme

1. Simple sugars turn to CO2 and ethyl alcohol

ZYMASE

2. Sucrose turns to Dextrose and Levulose

INVERTASE

3. Soluble Starch turns to Maltose

DIASTASE

4. Maltose turns to Dextrose

MALTASE

5. The Proteins are modified and split

to form Peptones and Polypeptides

PROTEASE

6. The Peptones and Polypeptides are

broken down  to Amino Acids

ENDOTRYPTASE

 

Stage 1 is the simple sugars that are immediately available to the yeast.   Franko is quite right that yeasts do not like high concentrations of simple sugars; that is too much food for them to cope with.

Whilst fructose is not specifically mentioned in the table, I think it has to be broken down further at stage 2 for it to become available to yeast.   So, if this is in high concentrations, it may well inhibit yeast activity, or make it slow to start.

Very best wishes

Andy

wally's picture
wally

Thanks Andy for the additional legwork to support Franko's suspicions.  I tend to think this is what is happening.  The dough does rise, so it's not that the levain has been killed or deactivated, but the entire process - from bulk fermentation to final proof - is noticeably extended.  So something is slowing the yeasties down and it could well be the sugars in the apple.


Best,


Larry

wally's picture
wally

As always for the comments, especially coming from you.  I appreciate the research - it seems to make sense as to why my vigorous levain slowed up considerably.  I'm now thinking about other approaches.  I could, of course, use dried apples as Hamelman does.  But there's your suggestion as well as upping the amount of levain and I like that.  I'm thinking of cooking the apple down into applesauce (no sugar added of course) next time.  I may increase the amount of levain and dispense with retarding my final proof to see what happens.


Thanks again for the legwork you've done for me!


Larry

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

One more bit on the slowed fermentation:


In Discovering Sourdough, Part 2, p.9 [pdf] by Teresa L. Greenway, she sz,

Quote:
Dried Fruits and Spices: Dried fruits and spices can also inhibit dough fermentation. Whenever possible, layer the spices or fruits in the dough, instead of adding them to the bulk dough during mixing.
Of course, you'd already found that. At least you're also finding it's not your imagination. ;)

cheers,


gary

wally's picture
wally

Thanks Gary.  I think between your investigations and those of Franko and Andy we can fairly conclude that the fructose in the apple is the culprit responsible for the slow rise of my bread.  There may be workarounds, such as the suggestion contained in your source, or it may just be necessary to give the bread more time which isn't a bad thing at all.  Kind of an 'enforced' retardation.


Larry

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Larry,


Am following this discussion with interest. The research I looked at (blue link in previous post), suggested that fruit sugars (including fructose), tend to slow yeast down. However it also suggested that, as yeast can develop pathways to deal with other elements, they can develop pathways to cope with sugars, that is they can become more osmotolerant. It also claimed that although wild yeasts tend to take up glucose more readily than fructose, some yeasts can become 'fructophilic/fructose lovers'! This is obviously important in wine making.


Seems like they can also be encouraged to go that way. In discussion with RonRay he noted that when he tried a levain with pureed banana in a familiar formula, it failed to rise. However when he fed his levain a little banana over a week to prepare it for the 'big feed' the yeast began to adjust, became more 'fructose lovin'' and the bread didn't come out flatter. (Think that's rignt - apologies if I mangled it Ron). More details on the Banana Saga thread.


More levain is another solution. However following through on the sugar and fruit theme also shows what amazingly adaptable organisms yeasts are!


Best wishes, Daisy_A

hydestone's picture
hydestone

Those baguettes look absolutely amazing.


I am a greenhorn baker and haven't baked much with apples.  Over the holidays I went on a little Apple Walnut kick and used chopped granny smith apples.  I ran them through the food processor with the s-blade until they were about half the size of a raisin.  They always came out great...but I don't have much to compare them to!

wally's picture
wally

Thanks so much!


Larry